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Friday, November 04, 2005

Easy targets

Isi Leibler is a doyen of Australian Zionism. Currently residing in Israel, he contributes regular articles to the Jerusalem Post and is keen to talk up the possibility of a second Holocaust. His latest article, Poisonous Ravings, continues the grand tradition. His target? Norman Finkelstein:

"Historically, self-hating Jews besmirching their kinsmen have ranged from apostates in the Middle Ages to communists in Stalinist Russia. Today their successors have assumed pivotal roles in the global campaign to delegitimize Israel.

"The most recent chapter in the ongoing offensive is Norman Finkelstein's book Beyond Chutzpah, which endeavors to depict Israel as one of the most evil countries in the world. The author also defames Alan Dershowitz, author of the widely acclaimed The Case for Israel. Dershowitz is particularly hated by the anti-Israeli pack because of his impeccable credentials as a champion of human rights."

"Impeccable credentials"? If defending torture and praising Israel's perfect human rights record is impressive, then Leibler has a valid point.

Leibler offers the usual rhetoric about Finkelstein - anti-Semite, Nazi-sympathizer, bigot - and worries about the long-term effects of such attitudes:

"The incredible damage to Israel's reputation inflicted by renegade Jews has been greatly underestimated. The distortions have already persuaded the average European that Israel represents a greater threat to world peace than Iran or North Korea. We cannot afford this to be extended to the United States.

"Israel must realize that the battle of ideas is crucial to our future. There are hundreds of talented Israelis and friends of Israel throughout the world who possess the scholarship and communication skills to enable them to make a major contribution. The government should invite the best of them to join in a campaign to reverse the tide. When the poisonous ravings of people like Finkelstein gain credence in the mainstream media, it is surely time to ring the alarm bells."

Leibler, like so many dutiful Jewish and non-Jewish Zionists, seem to believe that criticism of Israel is unacceptable. Jews should especially keep their mouths shut. Israel is beyond reproach and remains a beacon to the world.

Who truly believes this anymore? And is Leibler seriously suggesting that people like Finkelstein are to blame for Israel's declining stature in the last years? It may be comforting for the Leiblers of this world to solely blame so-called anti-Semites for Israel's woes, but perhaps a look at Israel's actions wouldn't go astray.

49 Comments:

Blogger smiths said...

just want to say that i think you are charting a very good course in probably the most treacherous waters,

i visited israel in the mid 90's and had literally no knowledge of middle eastern politics at the time,
when i left six months later i had transformed in many ways, i saw the results of bus bombs two streets from my house, saw the candle vigils in the evenings,
got treated as a second class citizen for the first time in my life (a positive experience),
saw curfews and checkpoints and dehumanizing tactics,

but the strangest thing about it is that is really the hardest topic of conversation of the lot,
opinions so charged, issues so emotive it just gets put away, and this is a problem,

so well done for looking at it humanely and fairly

Friday, November 04, 2005 1:46:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

It seems that anyone who is Jewish who dares question is labeled self-hating. Here in America people who dissent are called UnAmerican. Same crap, differant country. Anywho to lighten ones heart -
This poem was written by Eve Ensler (08/31/2005)

"Since GEORGE BUSH really got in power by corporate take over and not election. Since he has behaved like a CEO of a huge corporation called U.S.A. supporting profit in all cases over human interests, we should treat him the way they would treat him in any corporation and

FIRE HIS ASS

When you start with a major surplus and end up with a huge huge deficit they

FIRE YOUR ASS

When you fail to move a company forward, they

FIRE YOUR ASS

When you are lazy and take vacations at a time of peril, they

FIRE YOUR LAZY ASS

When you don't prepare for terrible outcomes and then lose thousands of lives and insane amounts of money they

FIRE YOUR ASS

When you lie to your stockholders and board and then spend nearly 1.3 trillion dollars and kill hundreds of thousands of people for no reason that makes sense to anyone, they

FIRE YOUR ASS

Sometimes they even put you in prison.

When you openly practice racist policies whether they want to or not, they

FIRE YOUR ASS

When you openly break the law, order torture and get caught they

FIRE YOUR ASS

When you hire people who are ignorant and incompetent, they

FIRE YOUR ASS

When you destroy the brand of a company
and alienate potential buyers all over the world, they

FIRE YOUR ASS

We are the shareholders of the U.S.A.
Bush has bankrupted our company, our pocketbooks,
but mainly our soul.
We need to remove this president and his staff
and we need to do it now.

FIRE HIS ASS."
from worldcantwait.net
Peace.

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:07:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him." Ariel Sharon Butcher of Sabra and Shantilla

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:23:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Human, you're rapidly coming unglued. "Shantilla"? Where dat, pray tell?

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:36:00 pm  
Blogger Ros said...

Ouze Merham is a fictitious Israeli general who supposedly interviewed future Prime Minister of Israel Ariel Sharon in 1956. In the interview Sharon allegedly said:

I vow that I’ll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian women and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child’s existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do.

It first appeared on Muslim websites in mid-2001 during the Al-Aqsa Intifada. The quote is viewed as false for a number of reasons:

The term "Palestinian" was rarely used by Israelis to refer to Palestinian Arabs in 1956.
It is unclear why an Israeli general would interview Sharon, and then publish the interview.
There is no record of any Israeli general named "Ouze Merham" existing, nor any record of Sharon giving such an interview in 1956.
The quote exists in no verifiable publication.
There are a number of false quotes attributed to Sharon which are circulating on the internet.[1]

The hoax quotation is frequently used as anti-Israel propaganda. Student columnist Mariam Sobh used the quote in her December 11, 2003 Daily Illini column, but later apologized.

Wikipedia

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:59:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

"Even if you'll prove to me by mathematical means that the present war in Lebanon is a dirty immoral war, I don't care." Ariel Sharon.

Friday, November 04, 2005 3:16:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

Ok Let's pretend that 'I vow.. " one was incorrect. How bout the others? Or How bout this one...
"We'll hear no more of that nonsense about the unique Jewish morality, the moral lessons of the holocaust or about the Jews who were supposed to have emerged from the gas chambers pure and virtuous. No more of that. The destruction of Eyn Hilwe (and it's a pity we did not wipe out that hornet's nest completely!), the healthy bombardment of Beirut and that tiny massacre (can you call 500 Arabs a massacre?) in their camps which we should have committed with our own delicate hands rather than let the Phalangists do it, all these good deeds finally killed the bullshit talk about a unique people and of being a light upon the nations. No more uniqueness and no more sweetness and light. Good riddance."
Interview 1982 with Amos OZ

Friday, November 04, 2005 3:33:00 pm  
Blogger Ros said...

Human’s next quote I found in an article about

“Reports have reached us today from Russian Intelligence Analysts that the expected attack by Israeli Government factions supporting Prime Minister Sharon against the economic life of the United States has begun. This information coincides with what is appearing to be open warfare within the United States itself between those factions supporting Israel and those in the CIA and Military wanting to hold Israel responsible for the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.”

The quote appeared with others

“To ours, and others, warnings they do not heed, and even mock. But to mocking perhaps these Westerners should pay more attention to the words of their true Master, The War Criminal Sharon:

"Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

"Even if you'll prove to me by mathematical means that the present war in Lebanon is a dirty immoral war, I don't care."

"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him."

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

The don’t worry about is also specifically mentioned as false in Wikipedia. I think that it would be safe to consider the “even” as false also.

Human where do you get your material, the Adelaide Institute.

Friday, November 04, 2005 3:40:00 pm  
Blogger Ros said...

Oh dear Human, Wikipedia again

The false quotes include Don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it, falsely claimed to have been stated by Sharon before Israeli parliament in October 2001 and reported on Kol Yisrael radio, and a lengthy quote in which Sharon refers to himself as a "monster or a murderer" and a "Judeo-Nazi" and states "the dirty work of Zionism is not finished". The latter actually comes from a fictional parody of an Israeli general referred to as "Z." in the novel In the Land of Israel by Israeli author Amos Oz, and falsely attributed to an interview given by Sharon to Oz in Davar in 1982. It gained credence when Rocky Mountain News editor Holger Jensen published it in an April 2002 column. Jensen recanted four days later, admitting he had “made a grievous error in not verifying the authenticity of 20-year-old quotes attributed to Ariel Sharon”, and resigned shortly thereafter. Oz has confirmed that he has never interviewed Sharon.

Note Oz has confirmed he never interviewed Sharon

Friday, November 04, 2005 3:42:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

Oh dear ros - Wikipedia ? The anyone can put whatever they want bs site?. I think I'll put some quotes on Wikipedia up by "ros" Sharon Apologist. Sharon is a Mass Murderer and you know it. Oh yeah give me some quotes from some Arab mass murderers why doncha? It'll just prove what Sharonists and Jihadists like you stand for. Death and Destruction. Nothing less and Nothing more. You excuse the terror on women and children. Deny. Deny. Deny. Your support of mass murderers will cost you dearly when the Lord opens up the Book of Life and reads your misdeeds. Do not be afraid of the truth ros. The truth will set you free.

Friday, November 04, 2005 3:54:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

Oh ros - You can find yourself on Wikipedia.
"Ros is a well known on the Internet. A false propagandist specializing in Promoting Zionist aims."
ki** goodnight. sleeptight. maybe you will wake up alright. maybe not.

Friday, November 04, 2005 4:07:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ahh - quotes. What fun.

"The daily life of Palestinians is determined by our belief that everything falls under the rubric of battle".
- Sargeant Assaf Oron, quoted in Chacham, R. Breaking Ranks: Refusing to Serve in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Other Press, 2003, p.27.

Maybe something with a bit more vintage perhaps?

"Of all the necessities of national rebirth, shooting is the most important of all."
- Ze'ev Jabotinsky, 1933, in The Political and Social Philosophy of Ze'ev Jabotinsky. Vallentine Mitchell, 1999, p.30.

No? A little further back then...

"We should not forget that we are dealing with a semi-savage people with extremely primative concepts. This is their nature: if they sense you are strong, they will yield to you and repress their hatred; if they sense you are weak, they will dominate you."
- Moshe Smilansky, 1913, quoted in Gorny, Y. Zionism and the Arabs: 1882-1948. Oxford UP, 1987, pp.61-2.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 12:04:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

It seems that anyone who is Jewish who dares question is labeled self-hating. - (In)human

Questioning is an inherent part of the Judaic being. Self hatred is not. Making blanket statement about the situation as you often do is akin to antisemitism. But you knew you are a antisemite.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 2:36:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Edward, your point? You are disagreeing with Moshe's opinion in 1913? Any proof that it is incorrect concerning the philosophy of the day in the Middle east/

Or are you just another blathering antisemitic blind pig searching for acorns?

Saturday, November 05, 2005 2:40:00 am  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

A pig searching for acorns.

Love it.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 3:41:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Questioning is an inherent part of the Judaic being."

You forgot the past tense phrasing in your statement.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 4:11:00 am  
Blogger Human said...

ibrahamav - Please seek professional help. I had provided you with links. Your blanket persecution complex is quite worrying. There are people who care. Just reach out they are willing to help.
Peace.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 4:31:00 am  
Blogger Human said...

Today's quote -
We dance round in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
Robert Frost

Saturday, November 05, 2005 4:43:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

(In)human - The best medical advice is to let fruitcakes like you die and not to resusitate. Let all heed it. Happy? Good.

Edward, nothing was forgotten. perhaps you're seeing things that do not exist? Many of your posts reflect that sense of reality.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 6:37:00 am  
Blogger Human said...

ibrahamav - I get the feeling that you lost the links I provided you with and are just too shy to ask for them again. Here they are again -
Some links to help you http://www.mentalhealth.asn.au/
http://www.mentalhealthvic.org.au
http://www.aasw.asn.au
Please at least for the sake of your family and neighbors get help.
Peace.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 7:01:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I believe you don't understand the advice that has been given concerning your general health.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 8:40:00 am  
Blogger Human said...

ibrahamav - I believe you don't understand the advice that has been given concerning your mental health. I'm not being cute. You need help man. Get it.
Peace.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 9:01:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

(In)human,You can't be cute, you don't know how. Which is among the many simple things you don't know how to do. From your posts, it must be assumed you have a breathing machine attached.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:05:00 am  
Blogger Glenn Condell said...

I remember a few years ago CNNN importuning a mob of wealthy, powerful people on their way into some do or other in Melbourne. They were asking them to contribute toward a fund aimed at sending asylum seekers back to wherever they came from.

I can't remember whether it was Isi or Mark, but it was a Liebler, who gladly reached into his pocket to fetch a redback which he handed over without a word.

Not a good look, given the ethno-religious character of most of the recent wave of refugees, and of Liebler himself.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 12:04:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Why iz that Glenny?
sending "people back to where they come from" is one of your favourite lines.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 9:47:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Yes quotes are always fun ED.

In the Palestinian case - we can just post their quotes all in their original form, without resorting to any any form of distortion or cheap chicanery. Of course if one were to post all the quotes which called for all out genocide or just racist incitement (starting from Hussani in the 20's) and Jihad they would be here forever.

Here are some (in their origional, unmeddeled form):

Arafat - Egyptian Orbit TV, April 18, 1998

"The Oslo accords are comparable to "when the Prophet Mohammed made the Khudaibiya agreement...we must learn from his steps...We respect agreements the way that the Prophet Mohammed respected the agreements which he signed." Mohammed in fact breached the agreement, pillaging Mecca and killing many of its citizens with whom he had come to the "peace" agreement."

Arafat - The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."

In the May 13 (2005) sermon Ibrahim Mudayris reiterated many of the often-repeated PA justifications for the anticipated genocide, including the following hate messages:

1. The Jews have inherently evil character traits that Muhammad warned Muslims about in the Koran.
2. The Jews have been the source of conflict throughout all of history: “The Jews are a virus similar to AIDS, from which the entire world is suffering.”
3. The persecution of Jews throughout history is presented as natural responses of self-defense by numerous countries against the evil of the Jews. Britain, France, Portugal, Czarist Russia, Nazi Germany, all persecuted and/or expelled Jews – as acts of self-defense and revenge.
4. Zionism was created by Britain in order solve its Jewish problem by sending them to Israel.
5. God has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews.
6. God has predetermined that the Christian -Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.
7. Israel has no right to exist and will be destroyed.







('Moderate') Faisal Husseini - PA Minister of Jerusalem Affairs

Al-Safir (Lebanon), March 21 2001

"We may lose or win [tactically] but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river (i.e. Jordan) to the sea (i.e. the Mediterranean). Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth." - by the way, this man was described as a "moderate"



Dr. Lufti Abd al-Azim, Al-Ahram



"The first thing that we have to make clear is that no distinction must be made between the Jew and the Israeli....The Jew is a Jew, through the millennia....in spurning all moral values, devouring the living and drinking his blood for the sake of a few coins. The Jew, the Merchant of Venice, does not differ from the killer of Deir Yasin or the killer of the camps. They are equal examples of human degradation. Let us therefore put aside such distinctions and talk about Jews."

Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:04:00 pm  
Blogger Jon said...

Leibler is an idiot. Anyone, particularly jews who dare critcise Israeli policy is in his books either a self-hating jew, a post-zionist or ignorant. Leibler and his ilk can of course attack Oslo or anything associated with the left - that's kosher to do.

The problem with Leibler's rambling column is that he never makes one rational point against Finkelstein's arguments. Saying that Human Rights Watch, Btselem and Amnesty are biased and therefore should not be believed is not good enough. What, are field workers working for these organisations lying? Surely Leibler can't believe that what is going on in the territories is an 'enlightened' 'benign' occupation. That idea at least by the late '80's should have gone in the waste paper basket.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:51:00 am  
Blogger Human said...

Comical ali - Oh yeah give me some quotes from some Arab mass murderers why doncha? It'll just prove what Sharonists and Jihadists like you stand for. Death and Destruction. Nothing less and Nothing more.
Peace.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 2:28:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Make a rational point against an antisemite who quotes his mother as a source? "If all of these memoirs are by holocaust survivors, then who died?"

You actually have to make rational points against an idiot like that to prove he's an idiot?

That's just a waste of time.
If it weren't for neo-nazis and other holocaust deniers, Finky would be out of luck.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 5:21:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Leibbler's comments reflect the continuing effor to shut down all debate on the subject.

He says that "There are hundreds of talented Israelis and friends of Israel throughout the world who possess the scholarship and communication skills to enable them to make a major contribution."

He is suggesting that these peple are not being heard. Since when have these friends of Israel ever been denied a voice?

Finkelstein is an academic who challenged the veracity of the point Dershowitz made in his book and has raised evidence to suggest Dershowitz is a plagiarist and a fraud. Surely a man of Dershowitz's academic standaing should be capable of refuting these accusations, without trying to silence his critics.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 5:54:00 am  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Of course if anyone wants to truly appreciate the "fun" of posting quotes and understand just how much neo-Nazi style hatred and incitment has spilled over into the mainstream Islamic world...one need not look all the way to the Middle East. Why we can always turn to our very own back yard in Australia. And who better to quote than the actual head of the Federation of Islamic council and the effective leader of the Australian Muslim community. Here's Sheik Hilaly on one of his favourite topics (Jews)- "they are the underlying cause of all wars’ who ‘…tried to control the world through sexual perversion, espionage and economic hoarding’."

Of course no apologies or retractions were offered since then and Hilaly was promoted by the Federation of Islamic councils to be their leader. And by golly, lets hope no-one "misinterpreted" what he really ment or were just picking and chosing "sound bites." And no it would be wrong and unfair to say that this guy is representative of Australia's Muslims, since he is after all their leader and representative. Ironically he is even hailed as a "moderate" by his fellow muslims.

Perhaps a Human or an ED can miracoulsly pull out some Leibler quotes -- or they can always turn to Colin Rubenstein, Rabbi Groner, Rabbi Wolf etc...

Sunday, November 06, 2005 10:22:00 am  
Blogger David said...

In the interests of scholarship: ros's claim that Sharon never said "Don't worry about the Americans ..." apparently comes from a strange wikipedia article which exists solely to defend the Butcher--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouze_Merham

Unfortunately it provides no justification for it's claim, merely throwing it out in passing--perhaps to muddy the waters. It includes as references CAMERA and FrontPageMag!

The quote as I am familiar with it runs like this--
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, in a cabinet meeting, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

In a sense, ros is correct that the quotation is obviously false--the American people DON'T know it yet. But they're waking up.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 12:55:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Addamo fails to understand that finklestein is an antisemite who has made no legitimate challange to Dershowitz. Fink was forced to remove the actual challanged because it was proven that Fink was lying. Why should Dershowitz have to refute obvious lies?

As for david antisemitic rant, there is absolutely no proof, other than additional lying rant on nazi sites about any such quote from Sharon.

What American's don't know are the lies spewed by idiots like David. They don't know them precisely because they are lies.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 2:19:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Crazy Ali and Ibrahim:

I have a slight advantage in such quote wars: I don't claim that Middle Eastern states are as pure as the driven snow. I don't deny that various Middle Eastern characters have said horrible things. Those guys are not on my "side" (whatever that is). So I don't have to reconcile myself with these quotes. I can reject them for what they are: evil. You guys on the other hand, in presenting all malicious violence and public-policy racism of the current Israeli state as for the Greater Good of Israel/Jews/humanity/the cosmic forces or whatever, have to somehow make your minds twist self-evidently evil statements into 'good' ones ... chilling statements such as these:

"Break their bones."
- Rabin's order to the IDF, 1987; quoted in Grossman, D., Death as a Way of Life: Israel Ten Years After Oslo. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2003, p.2.

And...

"The soldiers obediently carrieed ouyt the orders they had been given: to break the arms and legs by clubbing the Arabs."
- Safed, Y., "The Night of the Broken Clubs", Ha'aretz , May 4, 1989.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 3:22:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

Finkelstein is an academic who challenged the veracity of the point Dershowitz made in his book and has raised evidence to suggest Dershowitz is a plagiarist and a fraud. Surely a man of Dershowitz's academic standaing should be capable of refuting these accusations, without trying to silence his critics.

He did refute the charges of his critics- he requested Harvard to investigate, they did, and Dershowitz was cleared. Finkelstien keeps bullshitting, and many people still listen. He hasnt been silenced.

Not that any of this matters, because as a Zionist Alan Dershowitz is not allowed a voice in the leftist world of Antony Loewenstein et al. He may as well not exist to Israel's critics, who do not want to hear when their arguments are weak or simply wrong.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 4:10:00 pm  
Blogger David said...

"As long as the Arabs are here we shall never reach our goal ... . The only solution is for at least western Palestine to be without Arabs and to achieve this there is no other way except to displace them towards the neighboring countries, and to displace them all. No Arab must stay here." (Yosef Weitz, December 20, 1940)

"There was no such thing as Palestinians. ... They never existed."
Golda Meir, June 15, 1969.

"There is a huge gap between us [Jews] and our enemies. Not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to another galaxy."
Israeli President Moshe Katzav, The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001.

(and ibrahamav is worried about "antisemitism"!)

Sunday, November 06, 2005 5:19:00 pm  
Blogger David said...

"Dershowitz did refute the charges"

He most certainly did not. Nobody can read Finkelstein's appendix on the Dershowitz book without realizing it was shamelessly borrowed from the Joan Peters hoax. All Dershowitz did was get Harvard to say they could live with that. That has more to do with covering their asses than it does with protecting scholarly integrity.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 6:04:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

As long as the Arabs are here we shall never reach our goal ...

A quote from 1940 that doesn’t reflect what actually happened in 1947/1948 onwards.

"There was no such thing as Palestinians. ... They never existed."

Was Golda Meir wrong? Sure enough Palestinian nationalism is rampant today, with Palestinians seeing themselves as a distinct Arab nation (even though ‘Palestinian’ referred to both Arabs and Jews living in the region under the mandate, or Ottoman Empire?), but come the 1947 partition all those years ago many ‘Palestinians’ did not see themselves as such, instead wanting to live under Syria and co.

"There is a huge gap between us [Jews] and our enemies. Not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to another galaxy."

There is nothing wrong with this quote. Katzav is clearly referring to Islamic fundamentalists as the enemy (whose beliefs really do not belong in any just world), many of who are in power- such as in Iran and in the PA- rather than the Arab race, or Muslim religion. The differences between Israel and its neighbours are very real. Even Irshad Manji finds time to make this same point in The Trouble With Islam. She talks about the openness of Israeli society in contrast to the barbarity and restrictive state of Israel’s neighbours.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 6:29:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

"I have a slight advantage in such quote wars: I don't claim that Middle Eastern states are as pure as the driven snow. I don't deny that various Middle Eastern characters have said horrible things."

Like a true Dhimmiffied Kuffar, thats precisley what you do. Your narrative goes like this: The Israelis are the bad old colonalists and the Arabs are the blameless victims -- anything they do, say or claim is taken at face value and unquestioned.

I'm at odds to understand why you deny the obvious..I'm getting the impression that you might be ashamed of your position.

Whilst pulling qutoes out of nowehere (completley distorting them) to prove how evil the Israelis are, at the same time you ignore all the blatant incitment and hatred and ironically accuse the Jews/Israelis of being the instigators of all the racism and incitment to genocide. As far as I know, you wont find 24/7 hate of ARabs being broadcast on mainstream Israeli TV and radio or taught in Israeli schools.
Yet the neo-nazi style hatred of Jews among Arabs is so much in the mainstream and so wide-spread that you will even find it OPENLY expressed among mainstream "moderate" Islamic leaders right here in Australia.

And so you post another quote of a bad ol Israeli leader. After Human posted two half fabricated and very distorted quotes (one a Begin and the other a Rabin quote)and was exposed for his lying...I think enuf was said. The Jihadists and their dhimmiffied groupy apologists (like yourself) have zero credibility.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 7:14:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, November 07, 2005 3:22:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Comical_Ali said...
" Like a true Dhimmiffied Kuffar"

I think the term is “kafir”, you poor little shlemil. :P But let's not nitpick.

"Your narrative goes like this: The Israelis are the bad old colonalists and the Arabs are the blameless victims -- anything they do, say or claim is taken at face value and unquestioned."

Only in your wet dreams would (do?) I say this. To repeat, just so you know this is not one of those dreams: "I don't have to reconcile myself with these quotes [by various Arab characters]. I can reject them for what they are: evil." Still not clear enough? Those statements are evil evil evil. Disgusting. Revolting. Repulsive. Do you understand my meaning now?

"I'm at odds to understand why you deny the obvious."

Huh? I think it's because I can't see what "the obvious" is ... mainly, I think, because it is not obvious.

...unless you're referring, say, to the obviousness of the assertion that "The Israelis are the bad old colonialists" ... assuming you only mean those old white Europeans tragically trapped by a failed 19th century Prussian vision of the nation-state: culturally and racially pure, militarily unassailable; a vision which - perversely, morbidly - only hardens itself when it comes under attack from hostile neighbours.

"Whilst pulling qutoes out of nowehere "

Actually, if you have a look again, you'll see that I provided you with fully references so you can go to one of those new fangled inventions called a "library" and look them up for yourself just to double-check I haven't mis-quoted the authors.

"to prove how evil the Israelis are"

The point is not “to prove how evil the Israelis are”. How could I prove something that’s clearly not true? It is to show that various members of the Israeli political elite have, like any political elite, are not necessarily as white as the driven snow; that they, like all political elites, have very serious moral failings. The quotes show, if anything, that various Israeli politicians (not all Israeli politicians or all Israelis) are in fact thoroughly unremarkable. (That, of course, is not to suggest that their statements are any less contemptible just because they are so depressingly ordinary.)

"at the same time you ignore all the blatant incitment and hatred and ironically accuse the Jews/Israelis of being the instigators of all the racism and incitment to genocide."

*rolls eyes* Yeah, sure. Why not? You forgot to throw in the fact that I suggested the intifada to Arafat, taught Hitler, killed Jesus, and bit portions out of the Dead Sea Scrolls and ate them while sacrificing virgins on an altar to Baal.

Monday, November 07, 2005 3:36:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Eddie, schmuck, no one is as pure as the driven snow, even the failed christian version of the Messiah blasted a tree because it displeased him. And insulted his mother.

Monday, November 07, 2005 3:58:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

"Alan Dershowitz is not allowed a voice in the leftist world of Antony Loewenstein et al. He may as well not exist to Israel's critics, who do not want to hear when their arguments are weak or simply wrong."

Dershowitz has been dicredited pure and simple. I listened to a debate between he and Filkenstein and his defense was lame to the point of embarrasing. His fallback position was that Filkenstein was envious of his position at Hardvard University.

How can he expect any one to take him seriosuly when he makes claims like the one about IDF soldiers almost never firing at Paelstinians, and then only below the shoulders when the stats show that the victims more often than not, die from gunshot wounds to the head.

Monday, November 07, 2005 9:46:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

"no one is as pure as the driven snow"

OH ... My ... G~d!

I think we almost - just for a moment - caught a glimmer of the possibility that Ibrahim might be making the tinest of concessions about the morality of the Great White Hope of the Middle East.

Monday, November 07, 2005 1:10:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Fink dicredited Dershowitz? LOL That's like saying a misquito discredited an elephant because it got a sip of blood before dying.

Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:47:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
Fink dicredited Dershowitz?

Yeah, he did. I listened to the debate this afternoon and Finkelstein embarrassed the living daylights out of Dershowitz. As Addamo_01 said, by the end, the listener is embarrassed FOR Dershowitz.

Now, that said, it seemed clear that Dershowitz had been king-hit. He clearly didn't expect his book to come under such a sustained and detailed attack in this context. So, he had no time to prepare a descent defense and consequently gave lame-arse (and fairly honest) answers; all grist to Finkelstein's ever-faster turning mill.

Tuesday, November 08, 2005 1:25:00 am  
Blogger anthony said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Tuesday, November 08, 2005 5:13:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

How can he expect any one to take him seriosuly when he makes claims like the one about IDF soldiers almost never firing at Paelstinians, and then only below the shoulders when the stats show that the victims more often than not, die from gunshot wounds to the head.

My understanding is that both military and police training teaches soldiers and cops to go for body shots, as this makes for an easier target. Cant remember where I picked up that nice bit of trivia, though...

I doubt IDF training would be any different in this respect to other modern defence force's.

Finkelstein embarrassed the living daylights out of Dershowitz.

Bwhaa ha ha, only in very limited circles where citing any Israeli sources is a crime and citing the PA propaganda deparment is a must.

I'm off for a week, hopefully I can get outta my dirty habit of coming to Loewenstein's blog and never return.

Tuesday, November 08, 2005 11:25:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

"Bwhaa ha ha, only in very limited circles where citing any Israeli sources is a crime and citing the PA propaganda deparment is a must."

Your starting to sound more like Ibrahim every day. You really do need a holiday.

Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:55:00 am  

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