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Thursday, November 03, 2005

Killing the peace

The Guardian, November 3:

"Israel is deploying a terrifying new tactic against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip by letting loose deafening 'sound bombs' that cause widespread fear, induce miscarriages and traumatise children.

"The removal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip opened the way for the military to use air force jets to create dozens of sonic booms by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude, sending shockwaves across the territory, often at night. Palestinians liken the sound to an earthquake or huge bomb. They describe the effect as being hit by a wall of air that is painful on the ears, sometimes causing nosebleeds and 'leaving you shaking inside'."

Let's not forget: Israel is serious about peace. Actually, a rogue state soldiers on with international support.

59 Comments:

Blogger Human said...

ok after this news and after watching the film i posted about on the previous thread I'm pretty well upset. My soul hurts. Goodnight. Peace.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:11:00 pm  
Blogger Glenn Condell said...

Pigs.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:15:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

I was absolutely stunned the first time I heard this reported. Seriously - what kind of individual could sit in a room with their mates and plan something like this? What can they hope to achieve besides instilling terror into the people? This act is as despicable as any act of terrorism, anywhere.

Iqbal described this in his travelogue, too.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:32:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Just remember, Israel is the 'only democracy in the Middle East.' Repeat it often enough, and enough suckers may actually believe it.
Shame about that pesky occupation.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:53:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

"Sonic booms are an indiscriminate instrument, the use of which punishes the population collectively. We ask therefore that their use be stopped without delay."

So sayeth the UN's Middle East Envoy (and a smashing job he's done, too!). Wonder when he and the Grauniad will be so condemning of other indiscriminate instruments, like the firing of rockets into Israel?

Thursday, November 03, 2005 6:08:00 pm  
Blogger Iqbal Khaldun said...

Ever the polemicist, eh Yabadabadoo?

The descriptions are accurate. When I was in Khan Younis and Rafah last September Israeli jets were making these sonic booms on the hour, like clock work. Even through the evening and early morning. It was one of the most absolute examples of state terrorism I've ever witnessed. I was staying at a hospital at the time, and you could hear kids crying, dogs going apeshit on the streets, flocks of birds flying off awkardly looking clearly in distress. On some nights instead of making sonic booms the jets would fly low, which is still very loud and ominous. The clear objective was to intimidate, and it worked.

The booms are like a punch of thunder, the sound wave it generates is tremendous. And the booms always happen quite out of nowhere. The first time I heard one of these booms I fell to the ground. I thought I was going to be collateral damage.

Of course, there is the hypoethical argument that Israel must defend itself from militants. But these sonic booms have no genuine, military utility. It's state terrorism pure and simple.

As an aside, it's worth pointing out that a collection of well educated scientists and engineers developed the technology used in the Israeli jets. Someone had to think up the concept of a sound bomb that scares people as though it was explosive. You don't have to be stuck in a cave with a walking stick and a turban to think of ways to harm people.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:01:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Defenders of such practices always believe that Western states are incapable of terrorism...that's something 'they' do.
Thanks for telling your story, Iqbal.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:31:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

Thanks, Iqbal.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:54:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

or they could do better and just bomb the living day lights out of the place. what you rekon Iqbal? Whats the point of the sonic boom? waste of time indeed.



I think the Jooz are being very civil with people who have always wanted to exterminate them (and express their true desires via their mosques, Films, TV shows and media -- you know that better anyone else here).

If the palestinians were dealing in the same kind of way with the Russians, Chinese or even the more civilised French, British and Americans as they are with the Israelis...they would have been f*ked over and wiped off the map along time ago. there certainly wouldnt be any talk about a "palestinian state."

But unfortunatley, (and fortunatley for them) they are dealing with Jooz.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:26:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

sorry Antsky, rogue states and societies dont employ sonic booms - they employ a policy of mass genocide and are in the buisness of wiping off entire people's and nations, much like your Palestinian and Iranian friends.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:29:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

How much longer do we have to put up with your bullshit, Comical? Take a long walk off a short pier you tool.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:29:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Nah I'm not into martydom personally, but I'am in the buisness of making martyers/Shaheeds out of others.

if any of you moonbats and Jihadists seek to become shaheeds- by all means come see me.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:56:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Comical_Ali said...
"I think the Jooz are being very civil with people who have always wanted to exterminate them"

Absolutely. I can't think of anything more 'civil' than inducing miscarriages. This way they can kill anti-semitic Islamo-facsist terrorists in utero. Talk about technologically advanced industrial genocide! It's even more efficient than gas chambers. But as you say, at least they're being 'civil' about it.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:59:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

I would be interested to know who was subject to these "misscarriages" -- considering the amount of 24/7 bullshit which comes out of the gobellesque PLO propaganda machine. The same machine which also once claimed that the Israeli army sent in HIV infected prostitutes + strippers to seduce and corrupt Palestinian men and handed out poisoned lollies to children. You know that propaganda machine of the Jenin 2002 fame (where hundreds, no thousands of Palestinians were massacred and buried in SS style mass graves).

In any case Sonic boom is a waste of time. A more civil approach would be carpet bombing the place.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:08:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Stereotyping Palestinians or Arabs is alright, even encouraged, because, well, they're all terrorists and hate 'us' for our freedoms.
The West, on the other, cuddly West, and Israel, are blameless, because they're fighting a terrible, evil menace. Out, out, damn menace.
How comforting. How typical. How hilarious. How sick.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:21:00 pm  
Blogger Jon said...

The question I am as

Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:26:00 pm  
Blogger Jon said...

The question I am asking myself when Israel responds to a terrorist attack is whether the response is proportionate or not. In relation to the sonic boom matter, I cannot see how it is proportionate. It is interesting that at the end of the Guardian article it says that one sonic boom was heard inside Israel proper causing the tel aviv and central police switchboards to crash after receiving thousands of calls from angry citizens. Imagine how pissed off Israelis would be if that was occurring every day close up. Proportionate - I don't think so.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:34:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Comical_Ali said...
"I would be interested to know who was subject to these "misscarriages""

You're right to be suspicious. There should be trials. Public medical examinations in a military court. There should also be tatoos and serial numbers. There should be giant walls and barbed wire. There should be guards with machine guns posted everywhere.

Jon said...
"The question I am asking myself when Israel responds to a terrorist attack is whether the response is proportionate or not."

Never mind proportionality.

In ethical terms, I don't think a response of murder to an act of murder can ever be a morally 'proportional' one.

In strategic terms, the question I ask myself is why Israel responds at all. Statements like “We have to make it clear to the Palestinians that Israel will not let the recent events pass without a response,” and “The response needs to be crushing,” from Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz, are strategically utterly insane IF the objective is to STOP terrorist attacks in the long run. After five long years of Hamas increasing its popularity and strength with every Israeli retaliation, you'd think that even the most primative and impaired mind would start to notice the pattern: retaliation has precisely the opposite effect to deterrence - it fosters terrorist responses; it is the very air which the terrorist group needs in order to breathe life into its cause.

The only issue that needs to be resolved is whether the Israeli Defence Ministry is out of its collective tree, OR it knows exactly what it is doing and thus doesn't in fact want peace to 'break out' at all.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:49:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Edward finally states his actual agenda. he desires that a palestinian should be able to murder Jews at will for what ever reason he so choses.

Any israeli retaliation is immoral.

I believe that edward has just outted himself as an antisemite. About time that Edward stepped out of the closet.

Any more confessions, Edward?

Friday, November 04, 2005 12:47:00 am  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Well Eddie's married to a Muslim, so he's an immediate sympathiser if not a convert himself - note by the way that Islamic converts rarely join up because of the Truth and Logic of the faith, as opposed to for example many adult converts to Catholicism I know, but rather because their lover talks it up.

I love that none of the people here who are supporters of the Palestinians are able to acknowledge the regular rocket attacks, Hamas rhetoric, and general idiocy that comes out of that part of the world, and instead worries about flight noise from Israeli planes...but as someone alluded to above, the only acceptable position for Israelis and the West is as supine as Robert Fisk being pummeled by Afghani boys.

Friday, November 04, 2005 7:20:00 am  
Blogger Human said...

"We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
David Ben Gurion 1937

Friday, November 04, 2005 9:41:00 am  
Blogger Ros said...

You guys are joking aren’t you. Valiant try comical.

What do we have, sonic booms cause panic attacks in children, so rockets and mortars don’t.

Then two medical human rights groups asked the Tel Aviv high court to outlaw the use of sound bombs on the grounds it amounts to illegal collective punishment and is detrimental to health. And Mr de Soto said he did not accept that the tactic was a legitimate response to Islamic Jihad and Hamas firing rockets into Israeli towns. "Sonic booms are an indiscriminate instrument, the use of which punishes the population collectively. We ask therefore that their use be stopped without delay," the letter said.

This I really like. Of course randomly fired rockets hoping to hit some Israelis, any Israelis, is not illegal collective punishment and is not detrimental to health.

Why is this an issue when for the Guardian on Sunday, it was part and parcel of the ongoing violence including the firing of rocket and mortar shells

“Israel has pounded Gaza with airstrikes, artillery fire and deafening sonic booms, while Islamic Jihad militants have fired rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel. The violence has stepped up pressure on Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas to act on long-standing Israeli and U.S. demands to crack down on militants. ‘

Because now it appears
“Although the Israelis say the shockwaves do not cause casualties, doctors at Gaza's Shifa hospital said the overflights had forced women to miscarry. The number of miscarriages had increased by 40%, according to Jumaa Saqqa, a surgeon and hospital spokesman. "There were no other symptoms and the rise happened after the sonic booms. We can see no other explanation. The number of patients admitted to the cardiac care unit doubled. Some of them proved to have suffered serious harm."

Oh yeh, well that’s proof positive. Who needs a scientific explanation for this phenomenon. Just count the number of miscarriages over a 12? day period and by revelation, they are up and it's those bad Israelis. Get back to firing artillery shells at them you evil Zionists.

Friday, November 04, 2005 9:58:00 am  
Blogger Ros said...

Sorry this is priceless, the Israelis are causing women to bleed (periods?) as well.

“Dr. Muawiya Hassanein, director general of relief and emergency department at the PA ministry of health, on Wednesday revealed that five Palestinian pregnant women suffered miscarriages in two Gaza Strip hospitals due to Israeli mock aerial raids recently launched on the area.

Hassanein said that many Palestinian women were treated for psychological disorders, sporadic hemorrhage, and severe phobia caused by the Israeli illusory sorties.”

% miscarriages, over what period. No mind, as it was a 40% increase the normal would have been 3? So 2 more than the normal means that the Israelis are causing women to miscarry.

Some people would believe anything.

Friday, November 04, 2005 10:05:00 am  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

Shab, I acknowledge atrocities committed by the militants in Palestine. And I condemn violence of any kind, no matter who carries it out.

Ant's purpose here is to contrast the mainstream views of Israel as a benevolent arbiter of democracy and justice with the reality of its brutal occupation and the living conditions of "ordinary" Palestinians. No doubt many other commentators attempt to highlight the obverse.

This does not mean that Ant and those that read his blog endorse violence from Hamas and its ilk. That is a fallacious accusation, and you know it. You are attempting to defend the actions of the IDF by appealing to ad hominem tu quoque. Again.

Palestine is the underdog in this conflict, faced with overwhelming military and political power. It will stay in that miserable position until the world begins to recognise the true situation facing the people and acts to end the campaign by the IDF to demoralise, disenfranchise, and dehumanise the Palestinians.

And in this process, I do not support those wielding either rocket launchers or tanks. Instead, I hope for the safety of the innocents on both sides of this manipulative and pointless conflict. Opposing the IDF tactics described in this post is consistent with that positon.

I have always been taught to back the underdog. In this case, the IDF does not qualify.

Friday, November 04, 2005 11:00:00 am  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Dirt: Mindlessly backing the underdog is a very morally confused position, since it takes right and wrong of differnt positions/systems/ideas completely out of the equation. Indeed, over the course of the history of any dispute/conflict/battle/war the status of "underdog" could switch many times. The Allies were the underdog for much of WW2 in the Pacific theatre - from 1 April to 2 July 1945, Okinawa was an absolute slaughterhouse for the Americans - would you have supported them, only until they gained the upper hand later in the war, at which point the Japanese (for all their crimes in Asia) would have become the underdog and thus worthy of your support? Once it was clear that Germany was going to be crushed, would you have said, 'hey guys, let's back off here?'

Your comment is quite telling in that it reveals at its heart the emptiness of post-modern victimology, where all one has to do is cloak one's self in the mantle of victimhood - preferably at the hands of evil Western culture - and all your bad behaviour is forgiven, or at least not terribly scrutinized.

The fact is that your boilerplate condemnations of rocket attacks belie a greater obsession with Israel on yours and Anty's part (and amongst your friends) which tends towards monomania. Indeed it is hard to see how the Palestinians, with several hundred million 'friends' in the Arab world, are really underdogs here. Dirt, as you grow up you will realise that sometimes a culture or group or corporatio or other organisation are the 'underdogs' because there are internal systemic dysfunctions that need to be worked out, rather than because of the work of evil outsiders. The ALP is the 'underdog' party in Australian politics not so much because JWH is a great pollie (though he is), but because the ALP is, as Latho so incoherently articulated, highly dysfunctional. I would argue that the same thing applies to Islamic culture generally and Palestinian culture in particular, though of course I am immediately branded a racist and bigot as soon as I bring this up.

Friday, November 04, 2005 11:29:00 am  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Ed said:

"You're right to be suspicious. There should be trials. Public medical examinations in a military court. There should also be tatoos and serial numbers. There should be giant walls and barbed wire. There should be guards with machine guns posted everywhere."

Yep -- but naming an actual lady who suffered from a misscarriage directly caused by "Israeli sonic booms," would be a start. Dont you think? Considering all those miscarriages - i'm sure there is at least one article somewhere of a "traumatised Palestinian lady." Happy Googeling guys.


Given the proven amount of lies and disinformation which constantly emanates out of the PLO PR machine, I'm always suprised at how there are those who are still willing to take in all Palestinian allegations, unquestioningly and at face value. I subsequently wonder what their motives are. I only hope that some of these people (and DBO might be one) do this out of pure nativity - in their desire to unconditionally back and symapthise with the so called "under dog". Whereas with the likes of an Ed (who is married to a Muslim) or a Flavius Loewenstien...I'm not so sure.

In any case, if you want to see Palestinian doctors (you know the ones who talk about "sonic boom misscarriages and periods" and "HIV infected strippers corrupting young men") and film crews in action you can always download film clips from here: http://seconddraft.org/movies.php.

Pallywood -- its bigger than Bollywood.

Friday, November 04, 2005 11:37:00 am  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

"I have always been taught to back the underdog."

Morality and truth does not always automatically come with being the so called "underdog," and just because someone is the "underdog" doesnt mean they are automatically always in the right. what twisted logic.

In any case the "underdog" argument can always be turned around in the context of the Arab-Israel conflict: -- 15 million Jews VS 1 billion muslims, 5 million Israelis vs 350 million Arabs and their immense oil power and the almost unconditional backing of their powerful allies in the security council (Russia, France and China). I couldnt think of a better example of an underdog.

Friday, November 04, 2005 11:49:00 am  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Said Antsky Ranstky:

"Stereotyping Palestinians or Arabs is alright, even encouraged, because, well, they're all terrorists and hate 'us' for our freedoms."

Apart from a certain Bill Leak cartoon and a rant about "how bigotted and racist the Australian Jewish community is", I dont see anyone sterotyping anyone here.

"How comforting. How typical. How hilarious. How sick."

I know, tell me about it!

I should stop posting here -- but you are like a drug Lowy...I just cant get enough of you.

Friday, November 04, 2005 12:00:00 pm  
Blogger Ros said...

The miscarriages occurred in the period 27-29 October. Dr Sarraj. The sonic booms have also caused,
in young children "poor concentration leading to low academic achievement ... fear of losing a close relative ... fantasies, nightmares, depressive thoughts, glorification of violence, increased feelings of vulnerability and alertness". He said this was because "loud sounds are associated with danger in the minds of children, who are unable to comprehend the distinction between real shelling and mock air raids". As well as citing bedwetting, "night terror", headaches, hyperventilation, and palpitations as symptoms,

He appears to be referring to children between two and eight. This is from the sonic flights. They are able to distinguish the future low academic achievement caused by ten to twelve days from all the other violence inflicted by a range of parties on these children. And the sonic booms induce a fear of losing a close relative.

The purpose of this load of codswallop is an attempt to inhibit the operations of the IDF with a petition to the Israeli High Court. If they were to succeed with this argument it would seem fairly likely that others of similar but with far more curtailing effects on the Israelis ability to defend themselves, would follow. And may we expect another condemnation of the Israelis for collectively punishing the Palestinians from the UN.

An appropriate response might be for these human rights groups to be asked to launch proceedings in the Palestinian courts to stop the "physical and mental harm” to Israelis caused by consistent rocket attacks. But then that would depend on whether the courts were actually sitting

Palestinian Authority judges went on strike on Saturday in protest at inadequate security arrangements, while the chief justice said lawlessness in the courts had forced him to resign.
Gaza and West Bank judges and lawyers have repeatedly complained of attacks by Palestinian gunmen storming courtrooms to try to influence decisions or to protest about rulings.
Dozens of jurists protested outside the main court headquarters in Gaza, announcing that they would not return to work until the Palestinian Authority cracked down on the attackers and improved courtroom security.
August 6 2005

Friday, November 04, 2005 12:09:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Shin Bet Terrorist
speech to the Knesset.

Friday, November 04, 2005 12:41:00 pm  
Blogger J F said...

you are like a drug Lowy

Now I know why they call it dope.

Friday, November 04, 2005 12:42:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

I wonder if the loud sounds emanating around Gaza that cause poor concentration, depressive thoughts, anxiety, glorification of violence, fear of losing rellies, etc, could be the five-times-daily calls to prayer, backed by the nihilistic shriekings of the imams and sheiks?

Friday, November 04, 2005 12:45:00 pm  
Blogger Glenn Condell said...

'Take a long walk off a short pier you tool.'

The trademark patience is running out eh DBO?

They are tools and deserve virtually any epithet you throw at them, that is if you can be bothered to deal with them at all. I recommend you ignore the noise unless there's the occasional signal in amongst it. Which osn't ofteen.

You other blokes don't deserve to be Australians any more than raving antisemitic imams preaching hate. You are no different. The lot of you can bugger off back to that Godforsaken part of the world and stay there.

Friday, November 04, 2005 12:55:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple."
Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.
"The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir.

Friday, November 04, 2005 1:03:00 pm  
Blogger Human said...

And what happens to a Israeli Leader who desires Peace and Works for it? Why the rabid Zionists kill him of course. With Peace the Sharonists cease to have any purpose. Like the American fascist cabal Death and Destruction are the means to an never satiated lust for power and profit.

Friday, November 04, 2005 1:08:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Gosh Glenn, nice to see what happens when you get confronted with facts and arguments..."kick 'em out of the country!" You and Ant really should have a go at restarting One Nation. Academia is a perfect place for you.

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:05:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Inhuman quoting from good ol Mifta.

Here is the actual extract from the origional Begin speech:

"The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents."

Note - he never mentions "Palestinians" (not ordinary Palestinians anyway) but terrorists. plain and simple.

In wont bother with the other distorted quotes - however I noticed that with the Rabin/grasshopper quote you didnt even bother to put "The Palestinians" in brackets -- all the other propagandists (to their credit) who deliberatley misquoted him, did.

chicanery at its very best. They should employ you in the studios of Pallywood

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:37:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"he desires that a Palestinian should be able to murder Jews at will for what ever reason he so choses."

Please quote the line where I say a Palestinian should be able to murder Jews.

"Any Israeli retaliation is immoral."

Any Israeli act of murder is immoral. I also think any Palestinian act of murder is immoral. And so on. You think murder, done by the 'right' people of course, is moral, do you? How very disturbing.

"I believe that Edward has just outed himself as an anti-Semite."

How? By being opposed to murder? Gee - that's a change in standards.

"Any more confessions, Edward?"

As the Book says,
לֹא תִגְנֹב
so I'm also opposed to theft too. It's a crazy moral system I've got going here, but that's just me.

Shabadoo said...
"Well Eddie's married to a Muslim so he's an immediate sympathiser"

Sympathiser with whom?

if not a convert himself - note by the way that Islamic converts rarely join up because of the Truth and Logic of the faith, as opposed to for example many adult converts to Catholicism I know,

Gee - now there's a denomination that requires a lot of faith - what with the elaborate, exotic mythology it has built up over the years.

Signing up to the Holy Roman Catholic Church is pretty much to define oneself as being bereft of anything even resembling logic.


"I love that none of the people here who are supporters of the Palestinians are able to acknowledge the regular rocket attacks, Hamas rhetoric, and general idiocy that comes out of that part of the world"

Love this: I acknowledge the regular rocket attacks, Hamas rhetoric, and general idiocy that comes out of that part of the world. The place is trapped in a bizarre self-destructive psychosis. The Holy Land is now the least holy place on the planet.

"and instead worries about flight noise from Israeli planes..."

Don't forget the miscarriages.

Comical_Ali said...
"I subsequently wonder what their motives are. I only hope that some of these people (and DBO might be one) do this out of pure nativity... Whereas with the likes of an Ed (who is married to a Muslim) or a Flavius Loewenstien...I'm not so sure."

Excellent! I'm officially suspicious! Now: back to my super-dooper secret evil deeds. Gimme a P. A. R. A. N. O. I. A.

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:38:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Hey Eddie:

On the subject of converting, ask wifey what happens if you're a Muslim who leaves the faith. Religion of peace, my arse. And I'll leave your anti-Catholic bigotry for another day.

On the subject of killing Israelis, you've said that Israel shouldn't respond at all, which for all intents and purposes suggests they should lie still and get attacked until the Islamists get it out of their system. You're not suggesting that there should be any consequence (and indeed there are plenty of passages in the Koran that suggest the killing of Jews is cause for eternal reward), so for all intents and purposes you're saying it's ok.

Friday, November 04, 2005 2:47:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

Shab, I must clarify. The unarmed working class is the underdog. The armed foreign state is the aggressor. (And Comical, underdog status is not the rationale for my criticism of IDF tactics. It's your logic that's faulty. Again.)

Besides the "underdog" remark - which I confess was intended to appeal to your Aussie egalitarianism - did you read the rest of my comment? I may support the underdog here, but I am not doing so mindlessly.

Coming from a member of the right-wing chorus, an accusation of mindlessness is laughable.

Also, do you think you'd get away with "wifey" jabs if this discussion were to occur over a beer at the Exhibition Hotel? Many commenters are happy to engage you, and you get a pretty good run. Why do you feel the need to indulge in such rubbish? It's hardly masculine when it takes place on the net, you goose. ;-)

Friday, November 04, 2005 3:25:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Please, Dirt, I call my wife wifey all the time -- it's all innocent banter. This is a gentlemanly forum, no need for talk of fisticuffs. You silly goose.

I did read the rest of your post, and I saw nothing about workers v. foreign oppressors...Palestine I don't think really counts anyway as an underdog because they've got guns, rockets, and friends all over the world (many of whom, by insisting that the refugee camps stay as they are for political purposes, are more responsible for the Palestinians' ongoing dispossession than the Israelis). These are not the Ethiopians being mowed down by Mussolini's tanks.

I'm not quite sure I get your Marxist dialectic, I thought all that old-skewl class warfare was done and dusted ages ago.

Friday, November 04, 2005 3:45:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

No dialectic, mate. Just comparing the parties to the conflict - Palestinians in their homes and schools, against IDF troops. The majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories are civilians - working class people - and unarmed. The IDF troops are armed, well trained, and backed by air power. (And instruments of a hostile foreign power.) What part of that do you disagree with?

Friday, November 04, 2005 4:11:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Right, and the majority of Israelis within the borders of Israel are ordinary working-class folk who don't like rockets getting lobbed into their back yards or worrying that their 18-year-old kid might get blown up enjoying a night out at the club with his mates. It cuts both ways. I mean, let's say rockets occasionally came crashing down into your suburb from the adjacent suburb: what would you have your council do? (I know what mine would do: impose a special rocket levy on any property that got hit and give us a separate recycling bin for the parts!) And yes, I know that you condemn Pally-on-Israeli attacks too, but that sort of violence is rarely first cab off the rank when your lot get to condemning things.

Incidentally, the focus on the IDF's alleged brutality of Palestinians pales in comparison to the treatment of alleged collaborators, homosexuals, people brave (foolish?) enough to give inter-faith dating a try, those who think about keeping their shops open on a strike day, etc. (I can give links if you like). What is essentially a Palestinian civil war between rival groups has been far more destructive to whatever civil society is left there, IMHO.

Friday, November 04, 2005 4:22:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Israelis who purposly get murdered in cold blood (without question) are not civilians but legititmate military targets. I often wonder how many Palestinians would be left if Israel actually employed the same policies as the Arabs?


"Palestinians pales in comparison to the treatment of alleged collaborators, homosexuals, people brave (foolish?) enough to give inter-faith dating a try, those who think about keeping their shops open on a strike day, etc."

The guys for the under dog -- like a true Marxist take him for his word and leave him alone.

And speaking of working class, I wonder what he'll make of Arafat entering the Forbes rich list in 2004, ahead of Queen Elizabeth the Second. Working class Palestinians? Where the fuck has all that money gone? Our Marxist comrade DBO (spokesman for the under dog) shall enlighten us.

Friday, November 04, 2005 4:29:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

They are tools and deserve virtually any epithet you throw at them, that is if you can be bothered to deal with them at all. I recommend you ignore the noise unless there's the occasional signal in amongst it.

Pffft, Glenn. JF, Ros, et al had some undeniable points. Nice way to dismiss what you don’t want to hear, shoot the messenger.

Friday, November 04, 2005 5:43:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

The similarity between someone like a Condell or Lowy and Pauline Hanson, would be that all parties would deny that they are racist.

But thats where the similiarities end.

The difference:

Hanson wasnt exactly a bright spark. But she was never so stupid as to throw the "r" word around and call all her opponents "racist"...least of all whilst making racist remarks in the same sentence/accussation.

And so the sparks are flying...

Friday, November 04, 2005 6:21:00 pm  
Blogger Me said...

Human,

You really need to check your sources:

Benny Morris, for example, claims in his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, that the Israeli leader David Ben Gurion wrote to his son, “We must expel Arabs and take their places,” which fits quite well with the assertion that Israel banished the Palestinians.

But Professor Efraim Karsh, in his book Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians, refutes this, showing that the Ben Gurion letter actually states the opposite, “We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places.”


As for your next one:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

It has not been attributed to Ben Gurion in fact, the attributed source was cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 1980.

Investigation: Neither the source given (Ian Lustick's Arabs in the Jewish State) nor the actual report itself contains any mention of "terror, assassination, intimidation or land confiscation".

The Koenig Report or “memorandum” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written. It provoked controversy within Israel after being leaked to Al Hamishmar, the publication of Israel’s Marxist party, Mapam. Koenig’s recommendations included expanding and strengthening Israel’s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, cutting family subsidies to Arabs with large families, eliminating preferential acceptance of Arabs into Israeli universities, channeling Arab students into studying the physical and natural sciences rather than humanities, and encouraging young Arabs to study abroad and emigrate. As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using "terror," "assassination," "intimidation" or "land confiscations."

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source

As for the "beasts on two legs", let's look at the context, Brgan was talking about "terrorists" not 'Palestinians"

Internet hate sites, as well as Fisk, attribute this derogation of Palestnians as “two-legged beasts” to former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The source generally given is:

Menachem Begin, as quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts,"New Statesman, June 25, 1982

Indeed, the radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, did attribute such a quote to Begin in his New Statesman article criticizing Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. The author posited:

For this reason the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanise the Palestinians. Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as "beasts walking on two legs".

However, further investigation by CAMERA reveals that the actual speech upon which Kapeliouk based his quote, as well as news reports at the time demonstrate that the journalist distorted the quote, giving it a completely different tone and meaning. Begin was talking, not about "the Palestinians" but about terrorists who target children within Israel.

On June 8, 1982, Begin addressed the Knesset in response to a no-confidence motion over Israel's invasion of Lebanon. He talked about defending the children of Israel, and according to a June 9, 1982 AP report, “his voice quaver[ed] with anger and sadness.” According to the minutes of the session, Begin stated:

The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents.

Kapeliouk neither recanted nor apologized for his deception.

Summary: Distortion by an Israeli critic of a Begin speech discussing terrorism and terrorists.




Check out www.camera.org

As for:
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple."


I don't know if this one is true or not but don't really see the issue. he is not talking about settlements on "occupied lands" rather this is a call along the lines of "populate or perish" in the post war period in Australia.

I don't have any more time to uncover your error and misquotes. May I suggest that you research a little more and stop throwing around quotes that you read on websites that support your views without first examining their veracity and context

Friday, November 04, 2005 6:25:00 pm  
Blogger J F said...

Me,

Antony and his fellow nattering nabobs of negativism will link to any old crap they think justifies their continual whining. When challenged they run for the hills. Antony's recent post dealing, in part, with Depleted Uranium is a classic example. In the post angry Ant claims Depleted Uranium, "will ruin generations to come". In comments I provided a link to reputable sources – including the UN – of information on Depleted Uranium, which Human poo-pooed out of hand. Ultimately, I issued the following challenge:I am not aware of any reputable science that supports any claims that DU has had any significant adverse health effects on anyone, including soldiers with permanently embedded DU shrapnel, other than those inside armoured vehicles hit by DU penetrators. But for such persons, the inhalation of DU dust would be the least of their worries. Prove me wrong.

Now, if Depleted Uranium is, as claimed in the New Matilda article Lowy links to, a hazard to every person on the planet, it should be easy to provide reputable evidence of this hazard. That was a few days back and I'm still waiting.

It simply isn't possible to have a reasoned discussion with people whose world view is grounded in fear, hate and envy.

Friday, November 04, 2005 7:09:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Shabadoo said...
Hey Eddie:
On the subject of converting, ask wifey what happens if you're a Muslim who leaves the faith.


You really need to do some of that thar book learnin'. First, there are the theological debates over whether apostasy is really a fully conscious sin at all. Assuming you accept that it is - and that is by no means a foregone conclusion - then, you have to wade through the theological debates over whether it is a reversible sin. Assuming you end up being convinced it is not, then you have to deal with over a thousand bloody years of fiqh (jurisprudential commentary). While doing that you also have to bear in mind the various discussions over the relation between fiqh and shari'ah (law), the status of these with respect to the Qur'an (esp. the degree to which it is ijtihadi - an 'open' matter for personal judgement), as well with respect to haqiqah ('inner' law). Now, once you've made it through all that, the answer could be anything. For some Muslim crazies, the answer is, 'Death' (just as it is for some crazy Christians and Jews). For others (just as for some Christians and Jews), the answer is, 'Ostracism'. And for still others (just as for some Christians and Jews), the answer is, 'Nothing'. And for yet others (just as for some Christians and Jews), the answer is, 'Who gives a flying rat's ass? I'm trying to watch TV here.' That's the really, really short boring answer. (Sometimes reality is like that - complicated and boring.) We can go into details if you like ... if you've got a spare couple of years to learn some of the basics.

"And I'll leave your anti-Catholic bigotry for another day."

Awww - c'mon. I was only havin' a little fun. I love the Holy Father as much as the next Roman [True] Catholic.

"On the subject of killing Israelis, you've said that Israel shouldn't respond at all,"

Not 'no response' - just not the 'murder-death-kill' response. Why? First because it's morally wrong - as all good post-Vatican II Catholics know. But second - leaving aside the sticky morality - it makes good strategic sense. Y'see, the key to strategy is not brainless crazy mob psychology responses such as "Let's get 'eeeeeeem", but rather to collect data and do a statistical analysis of various policy options. Now here's the crazy thing: when you do a statistical analysis of various policy responses (that have been tried worldwide) to terrorist attacks over a fairly long period (say, 20 years), you get some very interesting results. Different policy responses have different degrees of effectiveness, of course - some result in substantial falls in terrorist acts, others result in small falls. Guess which policy response to terrorism is not merely the least effective, but actually causes terrorism to INCREASE markedly as a result? You guessed it: violent retaliation.

Now, my point was that if I can find these statistical analyses which show that violent retaliation has the OPPOSITE effect to 'deterrence', then surely the Israeli Defence Department must have these analyses too. The question that arises then is, as I said before, is the Israeli Defence Department so irrational that it chooses a policy which achieves the opposite to what it wants (less terrorism), OR is the Israeli Defence Department in fact rational and does not in fact want to minimise terrorist activities at all? That is the question.

I can give you some references on the analyses of time-series correlations for terrorist acts and policy responses if you want to learn more.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 1:16:00 am  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

Shab, I don't deny that it "cuts both ways", as you choose to put it. But defending the actions of the IDF on the basis that the other side also acts in such a way is a fallacious argument.

I strongly suspect we are on the same side, my dear Shab. But let's not tell anyone, just in case we make actual progress.

PS Comical, show me where I have ever defended (or endorsed) Arafat and your point is valid. Otherwise, I have a few straws here that you can clutch at.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 4:02:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Any partuicular reason why human hasn't apologized for posting lies?

Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:09:00 am  
Blogger dusty_buster said...

I saw a poster the other day that said 'Israel off the map now'!
In my opinion a truer statement could never be made.
What is wrong with these 'chosen' ones from Jerusalem?
Pigs and filth one and all they are. I look forward to the day when they are forced to account for their crimes against humanity.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 7:18:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Ib, like all supporters of the Jihadist cause Human feels insecure. Lies, distortions and the constant desire to mislead is are the only things that he and others like him are able clutch too.

Its tough going when the truth, facts, history, morality (and you name it) are all pitted against you.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:10:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Thank you comical.

And what is Sean's problem? The Arab nations will be gone long before Israel needs to atone for, in comparison to the evil Arab nations have wrought, the few war misdameanors commited in the defense of the Israeli citizens.

Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:55:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

"few war misdameanors"

Perfect. Your position couldn't be stated more clearly, Ibrahamav. Those who agree, please stand up now. The debate is shaped, and we know who's side you are on. Truly brave.

Sunday, November 06, 2005 11:19:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

"Its tough going when the truth, facts, history, morality (and you name it) are all pitted against you."

I love you're posts Comical, as you're sig tag aludes, you always rememebr to include a joke when you post.

Ibrahamav, it sounds like you're salivating at the though of an Armageddon like event taking place. You're reference to "The Arab" nations spells out that you expect them to be collectively doomed (along with their billion inhabitants). You are indeed a true humanitarian.

Monday, November 07, 2005 11:21:00 am  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

I'm thinking of changing it to "Chemical", so I can unleash an unconventiontional attack on you all.

Tuesday, November 08, 2005 8:36:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

*unconventiontional

unconventional (oops...!)

Tuesday, November 08, 2005 8:38:00 pm  
Blogger maxmerrit said...

A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to
all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the
Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need.

Here we go: The Palestinians want their own country. There's just
one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.

Like Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern
invention. Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians."

As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big
as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians,"
weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped.

Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing: No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.

That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.

Why?

For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes >poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mid east. >Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five Million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals..

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend, Kevin Rooney, made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading
and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of super models who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11th our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan.

Wednesday, February 01, 2006 9:04:00 pm  

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