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Name: Antony Loewenstein
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Wednesday, December 07, 2005

The questions

The Independent asks the questions that the Bush administration and her allies must answer. When a world superpower uses torture, outsources torture, holds "terror" suspects without trial and fire missiles on foreign soil, it is little better than a rogue state.

It is encouraging to see a mainstream newspaper - albeit rarely - challenge the levels to which so-called civilised nations have fallen since 9/11.

6 Comments:

Blogger orang said...

Yeah, the Piano Player certainly outdid her little fib telling talents on this one. Bold faced lies - the Euro's should be hanging their head in shame they don't call her up on it. "Fool me once shame on you.., fool me twice ugh....."..oh god you lying cunt are at it again..and I'm sitting here lapping it up ...

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:30:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

This is interesting on the subject of public approval of torture ... even the civilized French are au fait with it de temps en temps...

(Above post in no way implies Shab is or is not a supporter of torture, just that the resuts are interresant...).

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:56:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

It's hard to oppose torture, isn't it, brave fighting man?

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:03:00 pm  
Blogger Ian Westmore said...

orang said...

Yeah, the Piano Player certainly outdid her little fib telling talents on this one. Bold faced lies...

Initially she was trained as a Soviet expert. She seems to have learnt a little too well from them!

Old Joe Stalin's ghost must be laughing his green with envy head off!

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:02:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

shab, you're either more gullible than you sound or just stubborn. Now ask Joe six-pack, y/n would you say torture was OK if it was applied to someone who could tell you where a rapist was holding your sister..."well, duh, I tink that would be OK yeah..."
This is a bullshit question and a bullshit type of "poll".
stop wasting your time.

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:19:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Shab really suffers from a reality disconnect shared by the right, who have become dismissive of reality and facts.

The terrible pictures that came out of Abu Graib were gruesome enough to make your stomach churn in disgust. And to think that those were the PG batch. The XXX rated snuff version is being hidden from us by the Pentagon (who incidently lost a coutr case to withold them). There made the COngressmens and Senators who saw them turn various shades of green upon witnessing them.

But previous to Abu Graib there was and still is Guantanamo prison in Cuba. Reportedly such kind of torture is still a continuing practice. Now we learned that the Bush administration made torture the official policy of the CIA. Only now torture is outsourced to countries where these prisoners are remanded for further and probably more sophisticated kind of torture.

So why did this Bush administration do that if it claims to be acting in the interests fo the public? Why can't it do these horrible tortures in it own prison cells? Are they afraid of being discovered and be exposed as no less a violator of human rights that it accused Saddam routinely of doing? Does it just want to weasel out from assuming full responsibility for the atrocious things that it does? Doesn't Bush understand that contracting for a hit man to do the killing or torture does not absolve him from the crime?

This torture thing is actually an experimental application of the eugenics study pioneered by the Nazis. And ideological nutcases in this country's government are continuing it. Such calibrated torture posits that you can make them very easily confess to whatever it is you suspect them of doing. Torture also can make you change people, mold them, brainwash them, or so these nuts believe. Through torture you can tweak their mind so that eventually they become "Manchurian Candidates" and slaves to your will and command.

Torture actually followed a well thought out ritual: blindfold them (to disorient and confuse the mind). Put them in a very threatening position for long periods of time. Put them in a deplorably inhuman prison pit or cell. Deprive them of food and sleep. Continuously issue to them threats. And actually apply physical harm and injury in order to break the will and mind through the body. These were all done in AbuGraib, and as reports showed also originated from Guantanamo and are still a continuing practice Guantanamo, when nobody is watching.

This is a variant of the experiments mostly done on rats by the same sick nutcases. Deprive the rat of everything it is familiar with, then the rat starts to become crazy and confused. Over time gradually tweak the deprivation and torture formula to "reward" mode when the rats start to obey your command or desired end. In the end you have a "programmed rat." Then you have Frank Sinatra or Denzel Washington programmed to kill whoever stands in the way of your ambition. These wackos have it really figured out. Hitler and Co. also have it figured out in the concentration camps. Except that this kind of aberrant behavior is depraved and does not work --- in the long run. I doubt even Hitler & Co understood what torture is. Torture just comes natural with a criminal mind.

So you still need a definition of what torture is? If you recoil in revulsion and anguish at being put in the same situation those prisoners in Abu Graib and Gitmo were put through, then you perfectly understand what torture is. When somebody causes you harm and injury mentally, emotionally and physically while under their custody, and you suffer fear and pain as a result, then you are being tortured. The ultimate test of what torture is if you don't want it done to you.

And now Rice is globetrotting denying that the Bush administration does torture nor remands or outsources suspects to be tortured in foreign countries.

Rice outlandish claim is totally at odds with voluminous pictures of torture at Abu Graib and reports of torture at Guantanamo. Her claim is also starkly at odds with the reports by the Red Cross and Civil Rights watch of torture being done by foreign torture teams in Russia, Pakistan, Poland, Uzbekistan, Bulgaria, etc. Her claim is also a total denial of the admissions by the CIA and Army itself of cases of torture in prison camps. In the face of all these it can only be surmised that Rice has a personal definition of "torture" that she cannot divulge to the world, much less to the American people. And what's the probable reason why she and the Bush administration have never explained their definition of "torture"?

I bet you when really cornered she'll fall back on the ready excuse that has served them well so far vis-à-vis the 9/11 Commission as well as any other congressional commissions that plumb the depth of this administration's incompetence, dereliction of duty, and criminal activity: and that is, "divulging it will jeopardize 'national security.'"

When will Rice ever realize that she's already a "dead woman walking" the moment she started to tell the public lies? She thinks the savvy Europeans believe her when she said outsourcing these tortures are "saving Europeans' lives"?

This is another example of a non sequitur argument that holds a premise and conclusion totally based on mental speculation. Like the non-existent WMD it is a bogus reason to mislead and scare people. This time it is not to wage a bogus war, but to sanction and legalize the torture of suspects.

Rice, by her dishonesty, witting or unwitting, is already doomed to go down in infamy and hell. One day she will also learn what "torture" really is.

Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:52:00 am  

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