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Name: Antony Loewenstein
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Saturday, December 24, 2005

Some lessons in Israeli democracy

It seems like yesterday that Israel was being praised for bringing peace to the conflict. Now, perhaps, the world will realise the Jewish state's true intentions.

The IDF now advocates collective punishment and the targeting of civilian areas in Gaza. Notwithstanding the failure of such policies in the past, the IDF suggests it may even cut off electricity so that Palestinians understand the meaning of Israeli might.

Seventy U.S. senators are calling on George Bush to tell Palestinian leaders that "Hamas and other groups that the United States wants terrorist organizations to disarm or be banned from upcoming Palestinian elections." Again, dictating terms of democracy to a fledging state is a sure way to increase public support for Hamas. Besides, since when does the US or Israel have the right to tell the Palestinian people that only certain candidates are acceptable? Perhaps Abbas should actively campaign for the defeat of Ariel Sharon in the March Israeli elections.

Leading Israeli journalist Amira Hass reports on Israel's enlightened view of dissent:

"Israel Defense Force soldiers confiscated documents belonging to the Committee for the Popular Struggle against the Separation Fence during a nighttime raid on the northern West Bank village of Qafin, a committee activist said yesterday. Apparently, the soldiers located the committee headquarters in a building search and seized documents and NIS 7,000 and 500 dinars from their offices, said the activist."

Like the US - afraid of truly free elections across the Middle East due to the likelihood of Islamist parties taking power, as is happening in Iraq - Israel is trying to undermine free elections in Palestine. It is destined to fail on a number of levels. Open elections are impossible to conduct under occupation, though Palestinians will try and convince the world that they can while support for Hamas is partly related to the Palestinian Authority's corruption and inefficiency.

Until the occupation finally ends, Palestinian "democracy" is little more than a smokescreen. Israel and the US must be so proud.

29 Comments:

Blogger Ibrahamav said...

The IDF NOW advocates collective punishment. So it has been determined that nothing done before was actually collective punishment.

Seems to me that if Hamas wins the elections, thereby being the leaders of the Palestinian people, and there is another terror attack from Hamas, the IDF is justified in destroying Hamas.

After all, the terror attack is then an act of war. No proportional response required, just war.

As most Islamic democracies are smoke screens, why would the Palestinian thugacracy be any different?

Saturday, December 24, 2005 11:29:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

It was discussed but rejected.."senior IDF officials strongly opposed it, arguing that it constituted collective punishment and would be hard to justify. Attorney General Menachem Mazuz also opposes the idea.

As a result, it has been rejected"

Considering that the PA pays the families of suicide bombers US$250 a month (thanks to foreign aid) I think the Israelis are entitled to consider all alternitives to discourage attacks that are encouraged by the PA.
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB113520186870828732-lMyQjAxMDE1MzI1MjIyMDIxWj.html

Saturday, December 24, 2005 1:01:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
The IDF NOW advocates collective punishment.


Now it advocates it. Before it just did it.

Saturday, December 24, 2005 7:18:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

edward, again...they rejected it - read the article. But as I mentioned the PA pays families of suicide terrorists US$250 a month. And suicide bombing is a by far a more disgusting form of collective punishment, yet it is encouraged by the Palestinian leadership.
Yet what I am saying, for people like you who see everything that Israel does as evil and every thing the Palestinians do as justified, it will be meaningless.

Saturday, December 24, 2005 9:53:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Melanie said...
But as I mentioned the PA pays families of suicide terrorists US$250 a month.

How much does the IDF pay its soldiers? Just curious to see the pay differentials.

Saturday, December 24, 2005 11:23:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

How many oranges fit up eddie's ass? How many apples?

No real reason for the querry, Just curious to see the differentials.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 12:29:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav, do you know how much the IDF pay its soldiers? (This doesn't involve Israel's mysterious borderless borders, so it should be okay for you to answer this one.)

Sunday, December 25, 2005 1:18:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

edward, I couldn't have demonstrated your moral bankruptcy any better than you just did. I assume you also represent Antony's views just from looking through his blog.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 1:32:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

You're view of morality is viewed thorough a prism which you have labelled reality.

How can anyone, but a moral cretin, possibly argue that one form of collective punishment is more just than another? They are equally reprehensible, but maybe you see everything that Israel does as justified and every thing the Palestinians do as evil.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 2:52:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Poor poor moronic addamo, is it any wonder that his parents out him away?

Melanie isn't arguing the merits of collective punishment. She is stating that the tag team idiots, eddie and addamo haven't the foggiest what is collective punishment.

And as an example, suicide bombing is collective punishment. Shutting down the entry to Israel to non-resident Arabs is not, as those arabs have no right to enter Israel, yet those Jewish grandmothers murdered by Arab suicide bombers have a right to live.

See the difference? Now, can the same number of apples and oranges, which fit up eddies ass, be the same number that will fit up comfortably in Addamo's ass?

No real reason for the querry, Just curious to see the differentials.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 3:18:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Poor Ibraham,

Always making the most completely bizarre and assinine statements about people he doesn't know. My parent's outing me? Hey arse wipe, seeing my mother passed away recently from a brain tumour, perhaps you might want to make a joke about that too?

Maybe Eddie and I don't know what collective punichment is, but you have just proven that your concept is even further removed. Collective punishment of Paelstinians is been pretty much the staus quo that you can't even tell the difference.

Forcing women to give birth at checkpoints or having people die for lack of access to hospitals is your idea of benevolence I suppose.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 4:04:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Of course the IDF forces palestinian women to give birth at check points. In fact they look for pregnant women and hold them at check points until they give birth. Some have been there 3 months now.

Maybe eddie and you don't know? No maybe about it.

I'm sorry you're mother died. My mother died. Everybodies mother dies eventually. It doesn't give you the right to spout your nonsense.

Now start counting the apples and oranges. It'll take a while because you have a big ass.

Without the Israelis, the Palestinians have no hospitals. Their illness is not a mortgage on our lives.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 6:35:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

addam, the checkpoints are there for one reason only - to try and stop the Palestinian style collective punishment of blowing up Israelis indiscriminantly. The are very successful. They have caught an enormous amount of would be bombers at the checkpoints. But in your warped world, the Israeli right to not being blown up is worth less than Palestinian inconvenience at a checkpoint.
If you really want better conditions for Palestinians, start protesting against Palestinian terrorist - the very reason they are such a pathetic situation today. The only people that support their violent struggle are those that want to see Israel wiped off the map - but your not helping the Palestinian people in doing that just.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 2:23:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Melanie said...
edward, I couldn't have demonstrated your moral bankruptcy any better than you just did.

How so? Don't both of them get paid to kill people in order to obtain their respective political goals? I'll admit, one of them has better weapons and nicer uniforms, but in terms of their tactics, they appear to do pretty much the same thing a lot of the time: i.e. kill innocent people.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 2:24:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

edward, yes thats another fine example of moral bankruptcy. Intentionally killing innocent people and not intentionally killing them while equally tragic are not at all morally equivalent.
That they appear to be equivalent is because seeing Jews defend themselves against death is repugnant to you and more repugnant than Jews being blown up.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 2:39:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Melanie said...
Intentionally killing innocent people and not intentionally killing them while equally tragic are not at all morally equivalent.

If you look at the methods used to engage in extra-judicial murders of "targets", pretty clear that the IDF has absolutely no regard for the other human lives that they destroy. One could call that manslaughter if they only did these one or two times, but when they do it for YEARS it can no longer be classified as "regretable accidents". It becomes a clear and conscious choice on the part of the state; that is, it becomes systematic murder.

That they appear to be equivalent is because seeing Jews defend themselves against death is repugnant to you and more repugnant than Jews being blown up.
This comes out of your mind, not mine. I couldn't think of something like this. You, on the other hand...

Sunday, December 25, 2005 7:40:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Only an antisemite could look at the overall record and come away with that conclusion. Eddie, why do you out yourself?

Hitler didn't write an order "Kill all of the Jews" but we knew what he wanted. We also know what you mean. You're very obvious.

Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:38:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav, let's pretend for a moment you're not a raving looney. Are you even capable of constructing an argument, or are you really that brain-damaged? C'mon. Make an argument. I dare you.

Monday, December 26, 2005 3:55:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Let's pretend that you are not an antisemite. Screw it, lets stick with the truth.

Monday, December 26, 2005 6:29:00 am  
Blogger uphillsprinter said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, December 26, 2005 12:31:00 pm  
Blogger uphillsprinter said...

we are still waiting for an argument ib.. without reciting the anitsemitic mantra

Monday, December 26, 2005 12:32:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You can wait until the antisemite stops being an antisemite. I suspect you'll have a long wait.

Monday, December 26, 2005 1:37:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

"addam, the checkpoints are there for one reason only - to try and stop the Palestinian style collective punishment of blowing up Israelis indiscriminantly."

Isn't this really a chicken and the egg type fo argument? I believe that blame falls pretty evenly on both sides here, seeing as this conflict has spanned mnay decades. One could easily argue the IDF is forced to create these check points to prevent terrorist actions that are fuelled by grave injusices inflicted on the Palestinians etc etc.

"But in your warped world, the Israeli right to not being blown up is worth less than Palestinian inconvenience at a checkpoint."

My world may be warped to someone who makes no attempt to aknoeledge that there are two sides to this conflict.

"If you really want better conditions for Palestinians, start protesting against Palestinian terrorist - the very reason they are such a pathetic situation today."

Right, so you have evidence that as soon as the Paeltinians cease with their violence, everything wil be resolved right? Have your parents gotten to the part about the birds and the bees yet?

"The only people that support their violent struggle are those that want to see Israel wiped off the map - but your not helping the Palestinian people in doing that just."

Thatnk you Melanie for following the typical right wing lunatic script to a T. If someone is criticising Israel for the way they treat Palesitnians, it automaically means they are advocating the destruction of Israel.

Way to go darling.

So do I guess that by your going into denial about the humanitarian crisis, you are in favour of the outright errdciation of the Palestinian population?

Monday, December 26, 2005 1:42:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Here's Ibby's latest "argument":

Antisemite antisemite and antisemite antisemite thus antisemite antisemite antisemite antisemite and furthermore antisemite antisemite therefore we can safely conclude that antisemite antisemite antisemite antisemite. And if that doesn't convince all you antisemites, might I add antisemite antisemite antisemite antisemite antisemite antisemite.

Monday, December 26, 2005 5:39:00 pm  
Blogger Mannie said...

And what about an argument that uses apples and oranges up someone's "ass" - american for arse - which is what those people use who haven't got the ability to argue in a civilised manner without pouring out a stream of abuse - and using the mantra "anti-semite" with every breath they take!
Try and argue the points, not produce a chain of obscentities which do you no credit, and certainly don't win your "arguments"!

Monday, December 26, 2005 10:20:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Why bother arguing with an antisemite? It is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

The antisemitic eddie has already lost. I am just reminding him of it, time and time again.

Addamo - the humanitarian crisis is man-made by the Palestinians and their arab overlords. let them invest the money and manpower to solve it.

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 1:50:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Saturday, December 31, 2005 5:26:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Mad dog howls at the moon ...... again.

(I very strongly suspect that Ibby is still in the thoes of puberty. Nothing else explains his inane responses.)

Saturday, December 31, 2005 5:27:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You still want to learn how to dance? How pathetic.

Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:43:00 pm  

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