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Name: Antony Loewenstein
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005

Us and them

Sydney continues to experience racial tensions:

"Sydney erupted in a second night of racial violence last night as Middle Eastern mobs fired shots into the air, attacked women and smashed shops around Cronulla, while up to 600 young men - armed with guns and crowbars - prepared for a battle."

al-Jazeera wonders why:

"...Tensions between youths of Arabic and Middle Eastern descent and white Australians have been rising in recent years, largely because of anti-Muslim sentiment fuelled by the attacks in the United States in September 2001 and subsequent bombings on the Indonesian island of Bali."

A combination of machismo, racism - on all sides - and an Australian community that has never fully come to terms with immigration from the Arab world, especially in a post 9/11 environment, all contribute to this unhealthy situation. Prime Minister John Howard might argue that the riots do not reflect deep-seated racism but he knows full well that a great many non-Middle Eastern Australians feel distinctly uncomfortable with the Arab world and its myriad of problems. The Howard government itself stands partly to blame for whipping up anti-Muslim sentiment during the asylum seeker debate.

The issue, however, is far more complicated than that and requires a great deal of self-reflection within the Muslim community and the wider community. Australia's multiculturalism is not yet a completed picture.

62 Comments:

Blogger Shabadoo said...

I would add that, much closer to home, seriously anti-social behaviour on the part of young Muslims (anyone who's lived in Sydney has got a story); the gang-rape crisis a few years ago which the cops did everything to play down; and the rise of Lebanese car theft/drug/criminal syndicates.

We've been discussing it in another post before, but this I reckon is required reading on the subject.

Yes, the Cronullans acted like a bunch of absolute 'tards. But just what has been going on in Lebanese Muslim househlds to create the sort of sickos who stand over women on the beach and say, 'you're not worth doing 55 years for'?

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 4:55:00 pm  
Blogger Iqbal Khaldun said...

To be fair, whatever the image we intend to project, the picture is never really completed. The truth is that every generation for itself has to develop and define its identity. We build on the progress (or decline) of previous generations, but we nevertheless have to confront reality for ourselves, define for the here and now who where are, what we want, and so on. In modern times the expectation, at least in western, liberal societies, has a pluralist dimension. Viz, people from different backgrounds getting along with one another. But that has never been a static conception. It's always being challenged. Many have never accepted pluralism, in any form.

There's a central problem with characterising the hooligans on the basis of ethnicity. Take a simple example. You don't see Western civilisation being wholly condemned because of the actions of a few yobbos. Yet why must all 'Middle Easterners' or Muslims (or whatever else 'the other' may be described as) take the blame for the actions of a few? Should we expect people from a poor background, who often speak limited English, to be able to reign in their kids when the outward support is limited at best, and non existent at worst? Even in a 'functional' family parents struggle to influence the decisions their kids make. For many Arab and Muslim kids there is a strong sense of alienation. My mother, who is a high school teacher, often mentions that the Muslim kids feel ashamed to be Muslim. I think part of the reason for this is an indignant brand of Islam fueled by insecurity and orthodoxy. Islam doesn't have all the answers. Some things, I'd argue the most important problems, require secular responses. But I still think the main problem is socioeconomic. There is an absence of real engagement by the mainstream with minority members of the community. Similar comments could be made in relation to Aboriginal Australians, and perhaps more strongly.

Quite divorced from the above, you can look at some familiar threads. For eg, why is it always young males? Why does alcohol almost always play a key role? Yet where is the debate of the cult of alcohol abuse in Australian society. And why are women, particularly a woman's sexuality, often pivotal to specific infractions? Yet where is the debate on the popular image and expectation of a woman's role in society?

Let's ignore all these other points and just focus on a simple message. There's some hooligans throwing things around. Let's be tough on crime. There's a clear message here. We can't expect the powerful to address the issues. It's time we stopped passively consuming and started actively engaging in issues.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 5:51:00 pm  
Blogger boredinHK said...

I think we can overestimate how complicated this issue is.
The crime and intimidation the young lebanese men have been involved in has been spreading further and further afield from it's centre at Campsie, Lakemba and Punchbowl.
The response on the weekend was appalling but was in part a demonstration that some people feel the intimidation by these groups of young men has gone too far. The crime they seem to be involved in doesn't help and is used by racists to tar the whole migrant population.
Police actions haven't helped and their apparent hands off response over the weekend probably won't be repeated.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 7:41:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

antony

Clearly you have never been to the western suburbs of Sydney. The gangs of Lebanese males have terrorised Sydney-siders, particularly women for 20 years. I have beena victim of their awful intimidation myself. Fortunately, I can run, unlike so many of the poor "skippy sluts" who were served a "meal" of "Lebo cock."

You need to get your head out of tawdry Palestinian propoganda sites and live in the real world.

Is John Howard also responsible for the abominable antics of Islamic males in Thailand, Indonesia, India, China, United Kingdom, France, Spain, Italy, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, and on and on and on?

You have no idea how offensive your rants are to an Australian woman. If you yourself were a Muslim male I could maybe understand it (though not excuse); but as you are a white Australian, I am just dumbfounded.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:26:00 pm  
Blogger boredinHK said...

AL,
I am rarely critical of others on this site but neolefty chick's latest is way off the mark.

Your comments have been balanced .

Neolefty chick -please re read what AL wrote !

" The issue, however, is far more complicated than that and requires a great deal of self-reflection within the Muslim community and the wider community. Australia's multiculturalism is not yet a completed picture "

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:45:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Thanks. Neolefty chick is hysterical. As usual. Any chance to bash those Aaarabs, with whom she has so much experience, she'll take it.
She's about as interesting and relevant and racist as Alan Jones.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:53:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

boredinkh

I beg your pardon? How dare you trivialise my own considerable personal experiences. Both you AND antony need to read MY post again.

Also, Australia has never been, and never will be a "multicultural" society. It is a contradiction in terms. Yes, Australia is a widely successful immigrant culture. But the individual cultures from where people come erode very quickly within 2 generations.

These Islamic males have basically declared the 1st Australian intifada. The horrifying reality is that they will link it in with all the other Islamo-fascist terrorism taking place in every corner of the globe.

I fear the worst. The only thing we non-Muslims can do is defend ourselves.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:02:00 pm  
Blogger patrick said...

Neo Lefty,
_They_ declared the intifada??? I'm sorry, I must have missed the 5000 strong gathering of young men from Arabic cultures (yup! There's more than one!!) going on an "Anglo Bashing Day".

Oh, that's right. It never happened, it was the Corkies that did that. Whoops.

And thanks for sharing your personal experiences - we all know the weight that anecdotal evidence always carries - I mean, your experiences are clearly totally representative. As someone who lives in the Western suburbs, I have never experienced anything like the portrait you paint - and nor has my girlfriend - and furthermore, why is it acceptable to tar an entire, disparate group of people with the one massive brush based on the reactions of a (tiny) proportion? And why am I even arguing with you? Shouldn't you be over at Stormfront.org?

Yikes. Well, I guess I know where you'll be next Sunday. I can only hope the capsicum spray opens your eyes a little bit.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:34:00 pm  
Blogger boredinHK said...

Neo Lefty,
No one is trying to trivialise your experiences which are terrible and repulsive.
On another thread ( Dec 12) I wrote that I think much of this hostility is a response from economically challenged people who unfortunately resort to violence to counter feelings of alienation and inferiority.
I agree with you that the Lebanese community around Lakemba and Punchbowl has within it a core of hardened criminals who intimidate and assault others when they may be seen to interfere with their activities.
Why the surfer culture was involved is tangential - if 2 young guys at Penrith were hassled and punched at a soccer field , the " Show of Solidarity " on the banks of the Nepean say there would have been a completely different outcome over the weekend.
I think most of the comments about the beach culture are reflections on the writer and their discomfort with working class people of any ethnic origin.
Calling this an intifada is over reacting .
Attempting to link this with political consciousness is too much - I doubt whether many people actually out on the street or heading of in their cars are looking at the events as you are .

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:47:00 pm  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

Neoleftychick,

I'm very sorry that you suffered such a traumatic experience. It's something that no one should be exposed to.

you're lucky that you don't live in rural NSW where the sexual assault rate is many times higher than the highest Sydney suburbs, and where the immigrant populations are next to zero. Just good old aussie boys.

Tuesday, December 13, 2005 11:23:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

To echo the sentimewnts Neo, no woman shoudl ever have to tolerate what you went through and I can appreciate how that has coloured your perception.

Nonetheless, I am concerned about your repeated references to our being all israeli's and now this Intifada business. It appears like your inviting something of that destuctive nature to our shores.

Maybe this is the bubble that needed to burt to bring these issues to the surface. As Shab's link showed, much of the responsibility for allowing htis to happen shoudl also be shared by the corruption that festered in the NSW Police force in the 90's and the importing of that overhyped man, Ryan.

Iqbal's comments speak very clearly too. When a woman is exualyl harassed by a gourp of white males, it is regarded as isolated. When it's a group of Muslim Lebanses, it's held as representative of the culture.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:35:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Monday in the middle class haven of Glebe:

Was talking about the riots with a colleague. He's 60 and grew up in Bondi. He said when he was a teenager he and his friends used to roam the streets. The local public park was "their" park. If groups of Jewish kids strayed into "their" park, they would chase after them and beat the crap out of them. He said the primative, base, group identity and bizarre sense of race-based 'ownership' was fundamental to self-esteem.

He said that looking back on it, he was glad mobile phones hadn't been invented and that they were too poor to own cars, otherwise it could have easily blown out to something huge.

Tuesday in the working class 'struggle street' of Lakemba:

Talked to a 35 year old Moroccan guy for an hour or so. He said he was absolutely shocked by the riots because he had always felt that Anglo-Australians were decent and pretty egalitarian - he was basing this on his comparative experience of living in Europe where he said there was a strong feeling that people were always looking down at him as inferior. He never had that feeling in Australia and was one of the reasons he loves it here so much .... but the Cronulla riots have dented his implicit beliefs.

I suppose the small saving grace - and irony - was that an Anglo-Australian and a Moroccan-Australian can sit at an Ethiopian cafe sharing coffee, discussing the matter, mutually shaking their heads in dismay.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:04:00 am  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Of course, Eddy, the Jewish kids probably hadn't had a history of abusive comments towards local girls/women (see above), or of hooning around causing mayhem and trouble and beating people up for being white, or anything else like that. And if they had done that sort of thing, you know the cops would've put a stop to it now, unlike today, where PC policing has gotten us into this mess.

I think the Sunday riot was hideous, BUT go check out the "root causes". It's a lot more complicated than whitey behaving badly.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:09:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

Whatever it was, it's good for business. One week ago and no-one was reading/watching MSM, then fortuitously along come race riots. (saved)

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:28:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

And let's wait and see what lovely polic state laws Howard has ready to roll out for us when the dust has settled.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:36:00 am  
Blogger Stev said...

And Shab the Arab looking people who were targeted by the crowds on Sunday 'probably hadn't had a history of abusive comments towards local girls/women, or of hooning around causing mayhem and trouble and beating people up for being white, or anything else like that'.

That's where the racism comes in. When people are judged based on the actions of some people within their race. Note that I won't even use the cliche 'a few' because I know it's more widespread than that.

But the fact is that innocent people were targeted because of their race. That's a problem no matter how you slice it. And lefty your cheers of 'good on em' are as offensive to me as Ant's comments seem to be to you.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:43:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Anyone care to explain what the hell is going on here?

"You are getting text messages from people you don't even know," he said. "The next day I would ring the number and it was disconnected. [I have] no idea where it came from. I don't know where they're getting my number."

http://smh.com.au/news/national/police-look-for-answers-in-text-messages/2005/12/13/1134236063896.html

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 12:35:00 pm  
Blogger KK said...

what makes a few people from a minority group think they can impose their cultural crap on the majority? if these guys want muslim dominance, they can go live in saudi & see how many minutes of their grub behaviour it takes for them to be locked up somewhere very uncomfortable

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:03:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Do you think that's what they are doing? Imposing Sharia law on Sydney? Get a brain dude.

If this is about anyting, it's about turf wars. Most of these guys probably don;t even pray of visit a Mosque more often than once a year.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:06:00 pm  
Blogger ekw said...

The use of the word "hysterical" to describe a woman's reaction to being threatened and intimidated by a roving gang is beyond insensitive. It's also sexist. Hysteria refers directly to a woman (hystera=uterus) and implies that the reason she freaked was because of her sex. The other posts here diminishing this woman's experiences and rejecting her testimony out of hand as if they didn't really happen to her and that the people she said were to blame were really not to blame is shameful. Why do people, mostly men I suppose, betray this kind of attitude when a woman says that she has been sexually assaulted in some manner? Is this the "you must have been asking for it" mentality dressed up in slightly different clothing?

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:24:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

I'll use hysterical to describe men and women, and will continue to do so.
If a woman has been sexually assualted, it's horrific and should be condemned.
However, if you'd actually be reading many of the comments by 'neolefty', you'd realise that she in fact supports the assaults against Muslims, hates Arabs etc.
One doesn't make the other OK, but perspective is important, surely.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:30:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

Loewenstein you are wrong about NeoChick. You are setting up false arguments and knocking them down. If you were a quality journalist you'd articulate your position with clarity.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:46:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

KK said...
"what makes a few people from a minority group think they can impose their cultural crap on the majority?"

Exactly. Where do these Cronulla red-neck racist yobs get off? Who do they think they are? Hijacking words like "Australia" and so on. These minority-group fringe dwellers think they can impose their demented racist cultural crap on to the rest of us and get away with it? Not likely.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:54:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Anthony did articulate his argument earlier David. His arguments are not false. Straw man arguments are the darlings of the right.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:55:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

Well addamo please show me where Neo said in fact supports the assaults against Muslims, hates Arabs etc.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:18:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Lefty's disdain for Arab's has spanned manyh threads so I wont bother to cite examples.

As for the assault on Muslims, here is a quote for

For all of us
I have thought long and hard about this and personally I am right behind the Cronulla people. Why should they put up with the abomination of women dressed in all that offensive Islamic bullshit in AUSTRALIA!

I was quite heartened by this display of good old-fashioned Aussie pluck and disdain for political correctness and the primitive garbage of the Islamic middle east!

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:33:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

Is that all you have?

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:38:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

You asked for proof of Ant's statements. I gave it to you. Take up the gravity of it with him.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:42:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

What, not racist and negative enough for you?

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:42:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Apparently not for someone who thinks killing Iraqi's by the thousands and liberating them is one and the same.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:47:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

Apparently not for someone who thinks killing Iraqi's by the thousands and liberating them is one and the same.

More straw men?

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:51:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

What, not racist and negative enough for you?

That is different to supports the assaults against Muslims, hates Arabs

English your second language addamo? History certainly isnt your strength.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:54:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

You asked for proof of Ant's statements. I gave it to you. Take up the gravity of it with him.

Cutting and runnig ... just like a leftie.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 2:55:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Oh that's rich, comming from someone who is perfectly happy to parrot the absurdly mindless slogan that we are liberating the Iraqi's from Saddam (when that was clearly never the reason for going into Iraq). Now you want to start splitting hairs on semantics?

Logic certainly isn't your strength David. Your idea of history is highly sanitized.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:01:00 pm  
Blogger weezil said...

Well, David, you've certainly convinced me. Straw-man & ad-hominem fallacies win the day every time. Yep.

Sorry you're so frustrated that you can't win your points on fact.

Poor you. There, there. There, there.

Here, have a tissue.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:05:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

Oh you know what my reason to support the Iraq war was back in 2003? I didnt have any contact with you until today so you knowing what I thought back then is obviously false. Care to try again addamo?

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:09:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Are certain people capable of arguing a point without talking about 'lefties', 'leftoids' etc?
No, didn't think so.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:09:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

When you give up calling people hysterical, arabs bashers and racists I will give up calling people lefties. Tell me when you are ready to stop Anthony. I wont hold my breath.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:16:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Nothing to do with you David.

You know very well that the war was sold on WMD, a revamped nuclear weapons program, implied 9/11, unsubstantiated Al Qaeda connections, and a fabricated meeting in Prague. Liberating Iraqi's was a post facto rational trumprtted when the WMD's made a no show.

In fact, something like 27 reasons were given for the Iraq war.

Good for you if your reason for supporting he war was to liberate Iraqi's. But you are either ignorant or naive to ever believe the US takes military action for the benefit of others. they have never done so and never will.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:17:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

But you are either ignorant or naive to ever believe the US takes military action for the benefit of others.

Yeah that landing on 6 June, 1944 was for the benefit of the US military.

Could you be more ignorant?

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:34:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Grow a brain.

Let me spell it out for you. The US military answers to whom exactly? The Us military in 1944 was fighting for who's benefit? What was the status of US military involved before Pearl Harbour?

And BTW. You couldn’t possibly give a damn about Iraqi's or you would be livid with Madelaine Albright's statement that the half million death Iraqi children the sanctions had claimed was a worthwhile cost.

If you really gave a crap about Iraqis, you would be furious, seeing as the US helped draft the UN resolutions in 1991, which stipulated that the sanctions would be lifted once Iraq complied.

That same year (1991) Bush 41, having sidned the UN Resolutions, turned around and stated that the sanctions would not be lifted so long as Saddam Hussein remained in power. A sentiment echoed by James Baker and Sandy Beger.

the UN resolutinos made no mention of regime change, but the US used them for that purpose - to the detriment of millions of Iraqi's.


Do some reading David. Your in serious need of it.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:56:00 pm  
Blogger David Tan said...

Let me spell it out for you. The US military answers to whom exactly? The Us military in 1944 was fighting for who's benefit? What was the status of US military involved before Pearl Harbour?

What nonsense is this? You spell something out with questions not answers? OMG

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 4:48:00 pm  
Blogger jizya paye said...

David Tann
The Americans landed in Normandy to acquire all the french oil reserves did'nt you know?
And of Course this was at the bequest of Bushitlers grandaddy, A NOTORIOUS nazi collaborators who held vast amounts of stock in IG FARBEN, the German leviathan industry that produced the Gas for the concentration camps.
At the same time edsel ford was supplying the Nazis with axles for their tanks and spare parts through the French factories.
why do you think the AAF never bombed Auschwitz until they knew the neighbouring IG farben complex would fall into Russian hands?
As for the fascists in cronulla, is'nt it time we handed over our corrupt imperialist country over to the wisdom of the lebanese Muslim community. i'm sure the posters on this site would agree with that!

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 6:35:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Shabadoo said...
"the Jewish kids probably hadn't had a history of abusive comments towards local girls/women (see above), or of hooning around causing mayhem and trouble and beating people up for being white, or anything else like that."

Your comprehension skills are officially rated as : Very Low.

The story was not about "Jewish kids" (that part was totally irrelevant ... although I know all mention of "The J word" sets you and Ibrawhatever off like firecrackers, so I suppose it can't be helped). The point was that there has long been a territorial racial tribalism among Us-traaay-yan teenagers that flares up every now and then. And that there are some dimensions of the Cronulla riot that pre-date the Yellow Peril to Our North .... err, I mean the Arab Peril to Our North West.

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 10:24:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addamo/edward marianyi/antony

Your misogynist nod and wink to racially-motivated rapes and assault on non-Arab women is disgusting. However, it does not surprise me. It is a classic example of the points I have been trying to teach you.

Sadly the three of you are so drunk on bourgeois moral vanity that you cannot think straight. You think you have executed your duties appropriately by thundering about the "racists" at Cronulla.

You do not give a damn about the legitimacy of the locals' complaints. I wonder if you would feel differently if one of them had rescued you from the surf? I wonder how you would feel if your sister, mother, partner had to experience the crap these assholes Arab males go on with?

I send my heartiest congratulations to the people from Cronulla. It is called "community spirit" and good old Aussie pluck and guts. The hooked-on-multiculturalism-stupidity that is constantly on replay among the Fairfax luvvies are going to receive a huge shock politicaly. Australians are not jelly-backed suckers.

The Arab males would do well to learn from these people and integrate. The days of bedouin hate, "honour," and "revenge" need to catch the next magic-carpet back to Mecca.

It is time that we all started supporting the oppressed and abused Arab women. Perhaps we should start an "Adopt an Arab male" campaign to help ease them into our way of life?

Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:18:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Neo,

For someone who expressed her appreciation for the sidlining of policitica correctness at Cronulla, you are quite a piece of work. Seeing as anti-semitism woudl be ouot fo context in this thread, I suppose misoginy was the next best thing right?

Who here has made any appology for the inciting acts by the Lebanese at Cronulla. For God's sake woman, stop inveting arguments for the sake of it. You come across a raving moonbat.

The plight of Arab women is a legitimiate one, but your insistence that this in unique to Arab culture is just Plain ignirant. Domestic violence of any kind is intollerable as as was pointed otu earlier, the White Aussie male is the largest offender.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 12:39:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

neoleftychick said...
"addamo/edward marianyi/antony

Your misogynist nod and wink to racially-motivated rapes and assault on non-Arab women is disgusting."


Dear neoleftychick,

I hereby award you the "Ibrahamav Memorial Ball Of String Prize" for your obscene, revolting and down-right moronic lies. While you may never reach the heights of The Master Himself (although you are clearly working at it), you have made commendable strides forward in all the dark rhetorical arts. Congratulations!

Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:02:00 am  
Blogger the wolf said...

Jelly-backed suckers? Hey, leave the French out of this!

Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:29:00 am  
Blogger weezil said...

Antony, when are you going to put in that sockpuppet filter? Multiple Personality Disorder CAN have an upside, but only if ONE of them can get it right.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:11:00 am  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

"When you give up calling people hysterical, arabs bashers and racists I will give up calling people lefties. Tell me when you are ready to stop Anthony. I wont hold my breath. "

Whatever you do, dont David. rather ironic for someone who constantly accusses people of convienantly using the "race/anti-semite" card "in order to stifle (so called) criticsm".

Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:07:00 pm  
Blogger erinkait said...

If a woman has been sexually assualted, it's horrific and should be condemned.

Thanks Antony, that's sooo reassuring. Nice to know that you think that sexual assault against women (and girls, I guess) should be "condemned."

The utter lack of conviction in your tone is apparent. Do you believe that maybe a jail sentence is appropriate?

I get your point, Mr. Weak Tea. Dudes, rape is so unproductive. It's not worth 55 years in jail.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:56:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

55 years in jail for rape? It's usually half that isn't it?

It's time the state Liberals ran with a policy of castration for rapists, in future elections- that will win them Government, we’ll also see what the people really want to happen to criminals.

As for this, Antony:

"[The] Australian community that has never fully come to terms with immigration from the Arab world"

Why should we? Instead we should massively reduce the number of immigrants from the 'Arab world' in favour of a focus on accepting emigrants from Africa. The situation in the latter continent is much more dire than in the former. Let the incredibly wealthy ME try to stamp out corruption and distribute some of its oil money to their poor, rather than forcing the Western world to accept Arab immigrants. The religion of peace can deal with ME poverty and human rights abuses in its home region.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 5:52:00 pm  
Blogger Zoe Brain said...

Anthony Lowenstein said:
If a woman has been sexually assualted, it's horrific and should be condemned.

How extraordinarily insensitive you are to traditional Middle-East Values, Andrew! What a terrible thing to say! You've condemning an entire culture, as worthy as our own, based on purely western values and ethos.

Not every Muslim would disagree with your statement. The evidence is though that a not inconsiderable minority would.

Here in Australia, there's supposed to be a certain minimum standard, respect for a minimal set of human rights. A large minority of immigrant Muslim women in all countries suffer oppression within their own homes: you don't have to go far to read stories from the UK, France, Denmark, anywhere where there's a large number of unassimilated fundamentalist Muslims to find examples of "honour killings". By Pakistanis, by Afghans, by Arabs, but always by Fundamentalist Muslims from traditionally patriarchal societies.

Who is to blame? Partly us, the women of Australia. For not speaking out before. For not complaining when spat upon, called whores or threatened with rape for the way we dress, for not publicising the problem so people like Andrew L don't have a clue as to the scope of the problem. It's a "tiny minority" to them. Well do the sums, figure out how many "young men of middle eastern appearance" went around bashing cars, and in at least one case, the women who drove them, with baseball bats. Figure out how many are likely to be from extended families, where such behaviour is accepted, even encouraged, by the family Patriach.

Anthony L, just ask any woman of your acquaintance who has had to ride trains in certain areas of Sydney, whether it's a "tiny minority". Ask them if such things have ever happened to them.

Then tell them that they're being hysterical. Or do they actually have to be raped before you'll condemn what happened to them, and cease tolerating it?

Andrew L, I'm not saying you're bad, evil, or even the traditional MCP. I'm saying you are so incredibly ignorant of the true situation you are clueless, and so smug in your own ignorance that you're saying some very hurtful things.

And it's not all your fault. We should have spoken up before. That's the lesson of the 5000 in Cronulla: not the hundred or so Nazis, or the thousand or so drunken alcohol- and testosterone-poisoned hoons. But the thousands of local residents who just had enough of police inaction, and let themselves do some pretty dumb things out of pure frustration.

And nect time before accusing a victim of "hysteria", check the facts first, OK?

Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:24:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

*Ahem* Antony, or Lowy (he dislikes that), not Andrew or Anthony :P

And, what's an MCP?

Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:32:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Zoe

Absolutely brilliant! I could not agree more!

Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:10:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

anthony said...
"It's time the state Liberals ran with a policy of castration for rapists, in future elections- that will win them Government, we’ll also see what the people really want to happen to criminals."

The Shariah law punishment for rape is death. Harsh enough for you?

Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:49:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

edward

Yeah RIGHT! The justice of the Arab male? Tehran or Taleban style? ROFL. They'd call it an "honour killing" and the rapist fuckers would be called "Sheik" from then on.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:59:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Zoe Brain said...
"How extraordinarily insensitive you are to traditional Middle-East Values, Andrew![sic] What a terrible thing to say! You've condemning an entire culture, as worthy as our own, based on purely western values and ethos."

How extraordinarily trite of you.

"Not every Muslim would disagree with your statement."

Not every Christian would disagree with your statement.
Not every follower of Judaism would disagree with your statement.
Not every Hindu would disagree with your statement.
Not every Sikh would disagree with your statement.
Not every Zoroastrian would disagree with your statement.
Not every atheist would disagree with your statement.
Not every agnostic would disagree with your statement.
Not every Freemason would disagree with your statement.
....so you make no point whatsoever.
Why might not every Muslim disagree with the statement? Because not every Muslim adheres to Islamic rules. Well surprise, surpise.

"The evidence is though that a not inconsiderable minority would."

And here come the statistics to prove this revelation....no? Oh, I thought you were making a objective factual claim, rather than a subjective assertion coming from ... somewhere in your brain.

"...large number of unassimilated fundamentalist Muslims to find examples of "honour killings". By Pakistanis, by Afghans, by Arabs, but always by Fundamentalist Muslims from traditionally patriarchal societies."

Yeah - I've lost count of the number of honour killings of women in Sydney. I lost count at ... umm ... zero. (It doesn't seem to have increased much beyond that either. What a pity. It would have made wonderful grist to your Bigot Mill.)

"Who is to blame? Partly us, the women of Australia. For not speaking out before. For not complaining when spat upon, called whores or threatened with rape for the way we dress"

Errr - you do know there are hundreds of organisations in Australia which already speak out and "complain" as you call it, don't you? (You also know, don't you, that the vast majority of abuse against women occurs within the marital home and is highly correlated to the consumption of alcohol?)

"Well do the sums, figure out how many "young men of middle eastern appearance" went around bashing cars, and in at least one case, the women who drove them, with baseball bats."

5,000? Oh, sorry, that was the other psychotic mob.

"Figure out how many are likely to be from extended families, where such behaviour is accepted, even encouraged, by the family Patriach."

You'd know of course because you have gone around to every single one of them and surveyed them all, haven't you? No? Perhaps you went and checked out the ABS databases? No? Well maybe you contacted to Commonwealth Office for the Status of Women and studied their research papers on the topic? No? Umm - maybe you rang up some women's welfare and advocacy groups in NSW then? No? Oh ... maybe you consulted a source that is superior to all of these - your imagination.

"Anthony L, just ask any woman of your acquaintance who has had to ride trains in certain areas of Sydney, whether it's a "tiny minority". Ask them if such things have ever happened to them."

And maybe you could go and check some credible databases too.

"I'm saying you are so incredibly ignorant of the true situation you are clueless, and so smug in your own ignorance that you're saying some very hurtful things."

Kettle, this is pot. Do you read me kettle? Over.

"But the thousands of local residents who just had enough of police inaction, and let themselves do some pretty dumb things out of pure frustration."

Move along, move along. Nothing to see here. No, no - no racism here. Move along.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:30:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

neoleftychick said...
"Yeah RIGHT! The justice of the Arab male?"

Hey, I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm just providing a punishment that the Castration Lovers might find appealing.

"They'd call it an "honour killing" and the rapist fuckers would be called "Sheik" from then on."

Honour killings are illegal under Shariah law.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:33:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

I don't agree with capital punishment, Ed, justified by Shariah law or otherwise.

Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:59:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

anthony said...
I don't agree with capital punishment, Ed, justified by Shariah law or otherwise.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were looking for a really harsh punishment for rape. After all, it is rape.

Friday, December 16, 2005 5:04:00 am  
Blogger Mannie said...

"Emigrants from Africa" is really choice for all those Arab and Muslim haters in these blogs.
Many of those "Emigrants from Africa" who are entering Australia are Muslims from eastern African countries such as Sudan and Somalia, fleeing their war-torn countries.
What difference does it make where people come from? Australia is a country built on racism from its beginnings when the original inhabitants were displaced and destroyed by people with guns. Since then every newcomer to this country is an "emigrant" from another country, and almost one in four living here now either comes from overseas or has at least one parent from overseas.
Generalisations do not an argument make, and racism has been here from day one and in more recent times has been stoked by more than one government in this country.

Saturday, December 17, 2005 1:28:00 am  

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