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Name: Antony Loewenstein
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Wednesday, January 18, 2006

Ariel Sharon's war

My first New Matilda column for 2006 evaluates the mainstream media's whitewashing of Sharon's legacy:

"The Australian media's coverage of Sharon's demise reveals a predictable line. With notable dissenters such as Deakin University's Scott Burchill - who explained to readers of the Australian that Sharon was in fact an unindicted war criminal - the media elite has preferred to echo the official US and Israeli line, namely, in the words of the Australian editorial on 6 January, that 'Sharon offered hope to Israelis and Palestinians'.

"A few days later, the paper's Middle East correspondent, Martin Chulov, offered these nonsensical words: 'The end of the line for Sharon has revealed a sign of the times. Stability has not been brought to the Middle East by Arab wise men, but a Jewish warrior.' Perhaps the Zionist lobby had rewritten Chulov's copy before going to print."

My New Matilda archive is here.

123 Comments:

Blogger Shabadoo said...

This from the great media analyst who thinks the BBC is pro-Israel, despite the fact that their correspondent cried at the funeral of a real war criminal, i.e., Arafat.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:40:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

I once looked at New Matilda -- but that was before I knew Antony wrote for it. I nearly puked at the left wing commi rag and it's oh so unoriginal content. So, even for you Antony, I wouldn't look at it now.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:11:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

'"but a Jewish warrior."

Perhaps the Zionist lobby had rewritten Chulov's copy before going to print.'


I doubt the institutional supporters of Israel's foreign policy would be THAT stupid. As spin-doctors would advise, "warriors" are too easily psychologically associated with "war" and "belligerence". Sometimes a good look, but risky too. The fairly consistent line seems to be that Sharon was a "Great Man of Peace" -that always plays well, no matter how one slices it.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:12:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

Oh yeah...

Remember when Antony's hero Arafat died.

The Age headline read:

Death of a Warrior

On that day it lost many readers, including me.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:15:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:07:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

Arafat and Sharon are as bad as each other. I hope they both burn in Hell

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:08:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

Antony the big solutions man has absolutely nothing to offer. He says in his last post "I believe it is my responsibility to speak out when abuse occurs, especially when perpetrated by fellow Jews."
Actually he is almost only critical of the Jews, never looks at events leading up to any situation or the historical context.
Antony, the reason why you together with most on the anti-Israel side are totally useless is because Israelis will never be able to make postitive moves forward in your eyes since they are always guilty, war-criminals etc. You offer not solutions, just hate. And by the way, singling out Jews for criticism is anti-Semitic (even from a cultural Jew like you).

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:45:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

violet said...
"Remember when Antony's hero Arafat died.
The Age headline read:
Death of a Warrior
On that day it lost many readers, including me."


Only you Violent could see being inextricably bound up in war and death as complimentary.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:46:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

What do you have to offer melanie? You are so critical of Antony, yet you never post anything constructive.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:57:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

Calling someone an anti-semite simply because they critisize the actions of Israel and its government is foolish. It simply shows that you cannot counteract any of the facts or arguments in Antony's article.

BTW, Arabs are semites too.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:02:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

moodymann,
I'm not about to write a publish a book on the matter and I'm not about to sit on the board at Macquarie University. Even so I bewn involved in many things in Israel that actively promote peace. I used to be an anti like Antony and I used to demonstrate each Friday in Israel with Women in Black against the occupation until I woke up that only one side was actively pushing for peace.

The old "arabs are semites too" line. Yes but historically the term anti-Semite has always been used to mean Jew hatred. The term was made up by Jew-haters not by Jews. If your going to be picky about terms than you probably think a rabid anti-Semite has rabies. But typical anti-Semites try to play down anything of historical significants that give Jews any legitimacy.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:46:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

btw moody, I said anti-Semite not for criticizing Israel but for singling out Israel for criticism. I don't have a problem with criticism, it is very healthy when it is fair and even amongst all sides and countries. But what we have with Israel is worldwide vilification when there are such terrible atrocities going on as we speak around the world. That vilification and singling out is pure anti-Semitism.

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:56:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Moodymann said...
Calling someone an anti-semite simply because they critisize the actions of Israel and its government is foolish. It simply shows that you cannot counteract any of the facts or arguments in Antony's article.

BTW, Arabs are semites too.

But Moody, no one here has called anyone an antisemite simply because they critisize the actions of Israel and its government. That false cry is a canard invented by antisemites.

And antisemitism is not the hatred of semites, but the hatred of Jews. Trying to use another canard for deflection reflects your education.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:14:00 am  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

Ibraham,

What do you call someone who is against Zionism?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:19:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ibrahamav said...

"But Moody, no one here has called anyone an antisemite simply because they critisize the actions of Israel and its government. That false cry is a canard invented by antisemites."

With all due respects, you are proof that this is not a false canard. Ibraham, Eddie, Orang and myself have never criticised Jews but israeli fopregin policy only and you have repeatedly called all three of us anti-Semites.

Incidently, canard means duck in French.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:13:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

Israel is singled out becasue our discussiong o this forum are focused almost entirely on the ME, and specifically on the Israeli/Palestine situation. The threads that Antony creates are largely about these issues. Thus, discussions will always involve Israel, the US and israel's neighbours.

Yes we could criticise the governments of Sudan and China, but those are other topics.

Furthermore, while you and Violet are good enough to draw our attention to the plight of women in these countries, you musy concede that societal reforms are imposible while foroeign policy issues remain unresolved. It's next to impossible to appeal to societies to address human rights issues within their own borders when you are at war with them or ostracising them diplomatically.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:21:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Moodymann,

What you are witnessing is a familiar pattern. What you are being told is that criticising Israel is aceptable, but sooner or later, Israeli appologists will either accuse you of being anit-Smeitic and/or secretly wishing for the destruction of Israel.

What may also happen, is that they will try to suggest that your criticism is disingenuous, and in fact, motivated by a deep seated hatred of Jews that you have not come to terms with or accepted in yourself.

If all that fails, you will then expect to be informed that Jews are facing an imminent worldwide threat to their existence and, as Violet will tell you, one step away from experiencing the hororos of Auschwitz or Dacau.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:30:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

addamo, Almost every Countries government, the UN, the NGO's, Christian groups, lefty groups, etc. etc. focuses on Israel as the big vilian. Divestment Boycotts blah blah...all against Israel and NO other country. Don't tell me it's just this blog. It is every one. So Antony feels it is his duty as a Jew to hold Israel up to more scrutiny than other coutnries. Why? He goes one about every one being equal yet he holds Israel up to more scrutiny. Does he think that if he doesn't, no one else will? If the Arab world was even remotely capable of self criticsm I wouldn't be as critical.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:38:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

addamo "What you are witnessing is a familiar pattern"
This is getting tedious. You are totally blind to the real threats in this world. Most of the people you are buddying up to probably really do hate Jews, as this site is prone to attract. But I won't go on because I can picture you chuckling. Take off your blinkers.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:45:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

01 Eddie is an antisemite, because he is an antisemite he unjustly criticizes Israel. Just criticism of Israeli policy is not antismeitism.

Eddie blowing his nose is an antisemite blowing his nose.

With all due respect.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:50:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

01's attempt to deflect just criticism of those who antisemitically criticize israel is a canard well publicized by neo-nazi and islamofascist sites.

That 01 is an unwitting carrier is due to lack of intelligence, probably not due to antisemitism.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:52:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Addamo_01 said...
"Eddie, Orang and myself have never criticised Jews but israeli fopregin policy only and you have repeatedly called all three of us anti-Semites."

But Addamo, Ibby won't be able to see that. Indeed, for him the fact that you even refuted him is simply more evidence of anti-Semitism.

For Ibby (& feel free to elaborate on this Ibby), the logic (which is impeccable, by the way) goes something like this:

[1] The occupation policy is a sub-set of Israeli government policy.
[2] Israeli government policy is an expression of the will of the Jewish people.
[3] Criticism is a verbal assault.
[4] A verbal assault on one or more Jewish people is anti-Semitism.
[5] Therefore, criticism of the occupation policy is anti-Semitism.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:04:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Just criticism of Israeli policy is not antismeitism."

Oh, I forgot to add a couple of premises:

[4.1] A Just criticism is not a verbal assault.
[4.2] There are no Just criticisms of Israel.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:08:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Basically, eddie is now an antisemite playing with circular logic. Ho hum.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:43:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Basically, eddie is now an antisemite playing with circular logic."

In a sense, all logical deductions involve the petitio principii problem. See Wittgenstein on this.

Which premises do you not agree with Ibby?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:21:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Why bother discussing anything with an antisemite? Let him bait others with the addamo streaming out of both his ends.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:40:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

It is refreshing to read something which actually tells something approximating truth about both Sharon and Israel.
The tragedy of Israel's brutal occupation and colonisation of Palestine is that while Palestinians may, for the moment, have lost land, the Israelis have lost their Soul and self respect.
Arafat may have ill served his people but Sharon has served his people worse.
The vicious, racist, vindictive attitude that so many Israelis.... thankfully not all .... take toward the Palestinians has debased their society far more than it has been able to destroy that of the people they have been encouraged to hate by Sharon and his ilk.
One can only wish saner more reasoned voices to speak for Israel in the future.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:54:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Israel's other tragedy is that those who believe they are defending her are actually betraying her. Ignorance and denial serve to undermine, not strengthen.
Whatever the reasons for the foundation of Israel the reality is that the subsequent colonisation, followed by occupation and continued colonisation have involved great wrongs committed against the Palestinians.
Until this reality is acknowledged, and until Israel, like all modern colonising nations seeks to make redress for these wrongs, Israelis will be unable to live with any true sense of legality. This is why, I think, the paranoia and denial are so great in Israel .... because the underlying wrongs of colonisation have not been addressed.
The world accepts the existence of Israel and will continue to do so. What it does not accept is the continued colonisation of Palestine and the brutalisation of its people.
Those Israelis and their supporters who turn a blind eye to this terrible reality are sucking the life blood, not to mention the integrity, from the land they purport to defend.
The other reality is that there can be no future for Israel unless it becomes a true democracy ... that means it offers equality of citizenship to all of those who live within its borders regardless of race or creed.
How many of those who believe they are 'saving' Israel are really seeking to 'save' a dream that can never survive any sort of reality?
There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:05:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie said...

“Almost every Countries government”

Your full of generalizations. Almost all governments in the ME? Maybe. Which Western governments are openly critical of Israel?

“the UN, the NGO's, Christian groups, lefty groups, etc. etc. focuses on Israel as the big vilian.”

And you don’t think the UN condemns other countries for aggression against other countries? The UN was critical of Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor was it not?

NGO's are pretty insidious I agree. That's how the US got he Orang revolution to take place in teh Ukraine.

“Divestment Boycotts blah blah...all against Israel and NO other country.”

This may appear to be these case because there are very few conflicts that have spanned more than 40 years. Who else was on the black list when South Africa was being marginalized? Would it have been a reasonable excuse in your mind if they were to have said, at the time, that they were being specifically picked on because no other country was being boycotted at the time?

If you’re doing something wrong, then you can’t blame everyone for noticing can you?.

“Don't tell me it's just this blog. It is every one.”

No it’s not everyone. There are just as many defenders of Israel. Lose he hysteria.

“So Antony feels it is his duty as a Jew to hold Israel up to more scrutiny than other coutnries. Why? He goes one about every one being equal yet he holds Israel up to more scrutiny.”

Why? Maybe because he has a choice in the matter. Maybe because he feels passionate about this issue, as many of us do. The Israeli/Palestine conflict is a high profile situation. It is unavoidable. Nearly everyone you speak to has an opinion about it. This is a good thing no , or are you frustrated at the amount of attention it gets?

“Does he think that if he doesn't, no one else will? If the Arab world was even remotely capable of self criticsm I wouldn't be as critical. “

My heart goes out to you Melanie, but you are making no sense. So are you now suggesting Ant shut up because in your mind, there are enough critics of Israel already on the case?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:09:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie said...

"You are totally blind to the real threats in this world. Most of the people you are buddying up to probably really do hate Jews, as this site is prone to attract."

All of your arguments Melanie come from one basic assumption. That Jews, as a people, are under threat and in danger.

I wonder what your belief would be if that were no longer the case. What woudl be you attitude if you cesed to believe that Jews were universally hated?

BTW. Who on this forum do you conside rto be Jew haters?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:13:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Very thoughtful post RHRoss.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:19:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Melanie,
You ask why Israel comes in for greater criticism than the Arab world.
It is for the simple reason that Israel purports to be a modern, civilized democracy and is therefore judged by those standards.
When you set yourself up as something you will be assessed on that basis. If Israel is seen to be more remiss it is because it says it is one thing while doing another.
You either abide by civilized principles or you do not; you either abide by democratic principles or you do not; you either abide by human rights or you do not.
Israel claims to abide by all of these things but what it says and what it does are two very different things.
You have to compare apples with apples. You are judged, in essence, by comparison with peers ... by comparison with those who purport to hold the same values, not by comparison with those, who, for whatever reason, do not.
Because Israel claims to hold to the most advanced of human values that is how it is judged. Israel, rightly, is not compared to non-democratic states but to developed, democratic states.
Herein lies the problem because with such comparisons it is found sadly wanting.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:52:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

rhross - I almost wept. But then I realized that you wrote your little pile of addamo because you believed, out of ignorance, that you had the facts at your disposal. when, actually, you didn't.


Israel is not a colony of any nation. What land it owns, it owns through several articles of legitamacy. The 'occupation' is as brutal as the palestinian terrorists want it to be.

As for a 'true' democracy, it is as true as any other western civilized country.

Seems you need to by some glasses, strong glasses.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:55:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"The 'occupation' is as brutal as the palestinian terrorists want it to be."

Umm...so if the Palestinians just laid down and died the occupation would be less brutal? Yes, I suppose that's true.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:00:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

ibrahamav,
We all believe we have the truth. The important thing is to do as much research as possible, on both sides, to reach a point where balanced perception is possible. It also helps to have spent time 'on the ground.'
Israel is a colonising nation on the same basis that Australia is: a nation was created where others lived and dispossession was involved. That dispossession is a reality. The establishment of Israel was opposed by the majority of the people who lived on the land at the time. Like the US, Canada, New Zeland and other modern colonising nations.
Therefore, apology and redress. Leave religion out of it because it has no basis in any court of law and is merely personal opinion of a minority.
As to being a democracy, well, in a healthy democracy all citizens have exactly the same rights regardless of race or creed. In Israel they do not.
Neither is occupation a democratic pastime. Particularly when it is used as a cover for continued colonisation.
For my part, I accept that Israel exists and should continue to do so ... on original borders. I believe it should be a true democracy and not a semi-democracy based on religion. I believe it has great potential as one of the energetic nations of the Middle East.
I believe it deserves to survive.... but as a real nation ... not some ossified fantasty sourced in religious fanaticism and cultural paranoia.
You only have to visit Israel to see how much more Israelis have in common with their Arab neighbours than they do with so many of their diaspora 'friends.'
I wish it well, but mostly I wish it to be real.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:00:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Thanks addamo,
It's a difficult subject and we are all, to a degree, subjective, depending upon which position we take.
It's too easy to forget the humanity of the others involved, whether it be Israelis in regard to Palestinians or vice versa, or posters on this site.
Human beings seem to be hard-wired to want to be 'right' when mostly all we really want is to be 'heard' ... which means accepted.
Most Israelis and Palestinians do want peace.... they have been badly led by people who wanted victory more.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:13:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

rhross'

Israel was not created on the same basis as Australia. Therefore you initial statement was incorrect. While it is not always the case, most times a false leading statement often reflects the veracity of the entire essay.

Again, Israel is as true a democracy, and all minorities have the same rights as the majority and it is seen and protected in the same fashion as the vast majority of other western democracies.

You seem to feel that Israel must adhere to a higher standard. But your feelings are not a basis for reality.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:24:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

ibrahamav
The English said Australia was terra nullius ... empty land; the Jews said Palestine was 'a land without people for a people without a land,' it wasn't.
In both cases nations were created by the dispossession of many of those living there. That, in anyone's book is colonisation. You may of course call it what you will.
The majority of the people living in Palestine opposed, understandably, the creation of an Israeli state on Palestinian land.
So did the Aborigines, the Maoris and the American Indians ... it's all called colonisation.
A democracy gives equal rights to all citizens. Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights as other Israelis.
For instance non-Jewish Israelis, discrimination by religion and race, cannot get building permits in the same way that Jewish Israelis can. Neither can they marry and bring their spouse to live with them; neither can they live outside of Israel with a right of return.
That's non-democratic in most peoples books even if it is not in yours.
And I don't believe Israel should adhere to higher standards, merely the standards by which it purports to adhere.
An Olympic athlete does not compare him or herself to an amateur ... ergo, a modern, democratic society does not compare themselves to less developed, non-democratic societies.
If Israel wants to lower the 'bar' and admit it functions as a less developed, non-democratic nation it will be judged accordingly.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:40:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

You know ibrahamav,
there's a saying:
if one person criticizes you it's okay to ignore it.
if two people say the same thing then you should think about it, and, if more than two say the same thing, you clearly have a problem and need to take action.
More than 'two' have been saying the same sorts of things about Israel for a very long time, and that includes some of Israel's top thinkers and academics, countless dissenting reservists and the many brave members of Israeli peace and human rights groups .... that means Israel has a problem.
It is time to stop denying, to listen and to take action.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:49:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

The Jews did not claim that the region was 'a land without people'. It was said by an English Christian in the 1800's. Do not go by neo-nazi and islamo-fascist sites that will give you as much addamo as you can stomach.

Are you calling all of the other democracies as amatuer, and only Israel must rise to the level of a professional? And you are stating that you "don't believe Israel should adhere to higher standards"?

You can't have it both ways.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:52:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Neither can they marry and bring their spouse to live with them;

I do not believe a Jewish israeli may marry a palestinian and bring that person into Israel. I do believe that an Arab Israeli may marry a japanese and bring that person into Israel. How undemocratic of Isrsael!

It appears that Israel is discriminating against the Jews. this must stop.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:55:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

Usual horseshit from the usual anti-anti-zionists and the odd anti-simian.

If someone came on this site and said something like, "Loewenstein what a fuckhead, he only got his job because of his contacts. And that Chomsky, what an old clapped out nerdy jewish d*ckhead, and don't get me started on Finkelstein...."

All three are jews, yet I believe I would get not one accusation for being an anti-semite.

Why is this?

anyone? anyone?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:09:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

Ibrahamav said...

"Neither can they marry and bring their spouse to live with them;"

Ahem, excuse me?. Could you repeat that?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:18:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You would about the chomsky comment. But knowing how you've already blown him, we 'd know you didn't mean it.




orang said...
Ibrahamav said...

"Neither can they marry and bring their spouse to live with them;"

Ahem, excuse me?. Could you repeat that?

That was a copied comment from rhross. You'll have to ask him.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:03:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

addamo said:
"Which Western governments are openly critical of Israel?"

Most of Western Europe.

"And you don’t think the UN condemns other countries for aggression against other countries?"

Israel is the only country in the world not eligible to sit on the security council. More that 5% of all UN resolutions are against Israel.

on the boycotts"Who else was on the black list when South Africa was being marginalized?"

Israel is nothing like South Africa. Israel is in this situation because the arabs keep trying to wipe Israel of the map - and kill the Jews. What about the countries that Jews aren't even allow to enter? What about the countries where non Muslim's have not rights at all? What about countries where women are treated worse than dogs?

"All of your arguments Melanie come from one basic assumption. That Jews, as a people, are under threat and in danger.
I wonder what your belief would be if that were no longer the case."

That would be wonderful Addamo if it wasn't the case - but it is not. Your basic assuption is that there is no threat. What if you are wrong. You ignore everything going on because you know that is the one thing that can legitimise Israel. Therefore when the Immans preach in Mosques around the globe to kill Jews, you ignore it. When Government Leaders around the world accuse Jews of controlling the world you ignore it. When anti-Semetic incidents around the world are far more violent than ever before, you ignore it.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:58:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Which is why _01 is considered a borderline antisemite. He could not possibly be spreading all of this addamo without having a suspect agenda.

He can't really be that stupid and ignorant, can he?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:17:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

I am tired of people like you and their rhetorical contortions aimed at wiggling out of the cold hard fact that their obssessive colouring of the Israelis as evil and the Arabs of poor innocent peaceful deserving victims. The Arab Muslims are assholes.

Oh dear. Israel is the only nation that was created by perfectly legal and transparent land purchases. These land purchases were made enthusiastically by both the Ottomans and the Arab landowners. Then came war. The Ottomans threw their lot in with the losers. You rolls the dice....

Then more perfectly legal land sales took place. But then the local Arabs fought alongside the Nazis, hoping to extend the Final Solution into Palestine.

During WW2, the Palestinian Arabs supported Hitler, were responsible for ensuring the capture of fleeing Jews who then went to the gas chambers, and fought alongside Rommel's Nazi army as it moved across northern Africa into Egypt.

Now, what SHOULD have happened is ALL the Arabs should have been kicked out of Palestine immediately. After all, the Russians kicked 15 million Germans out Czechslovakia (the Sudentland), there were also massive population transfers between Pakistan and India and between Greece and Turkey in 1922, which involved over 1 million Greeks being given the boot.


The Arabs continued attacking and killing Jews after the Partitition decision was made. Civil War was inevitable. Israel won. No, it wasn't pretty. Yes, the Jews fought with no holds barred. Can you blame them?

The day after Israel declared independence (formally recognised by the UN one year later) 7 Arab armies attacked Israel. One of those armies, Jordan, did NOT invade Israel. BUT it did steal the West Bank. There was not a peep about an independent Palestinian state during the 20 years that Jordan held the West Bank.

Israel won the 1948 War. Winners of wars started by others get to keep any land they gain. That's the world is toots.

And 800,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab countries!!!! So of the Jewish communties who in 1948 were living in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, etc. only 1% of them today still lives in those countries!!! There has not been any compensation for these people, who were richer and actually owned land and property and businesses.

On the other hand 80% of the Palestinian refugees were mere peasant tenant farmers. Also the vast majority of Arabs living in the land that was to be Israel had only moved into the region in the 1930s and 1940s attracted by the economic boom facilitated by the Jews and the British presence. It is this socio-economic fact that lies at the root of Palestinian dissolution. The other educated and skilled 20% moved throughout the Arab world, particularly the Gulf States where they took up prosperous employment.

And yet the Palestinains think they DESERVE a state! The only reason we are in this situation is because the US has consistently used its power to prevent a proper resolution which would have been an all out war. Time and time again the US made Israel retreat.

It's about time the Muslims stopped their whingeing and took some responsibility for their shitty culture and societies.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:44:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Whoever first used the term: 'a land without people for a people without a land,' it is historical record that the Zionists used this as a slogan. Which was the point.

If a Jewish Israeli can marry a Japanese and bring them into the country as full citizens, this DOES NOT, right the wrong, nor negate the discrimination involved in the fact that NON-Jewish Israelis cannot do the same thing.

An Arab Israeli cannot bring a spouse into the country. I am not even sure a Jewish Israeli can bring a Palestinian spouse into the country so if they can bring other nationalities it is even more specificially racist.

The charter of a democracy prohibits it from discriminating against its citizens. The government of a democracy, by its nature, represents equally, all citizens, not just ones who claim to hold a specific religion as in the Israeli instance.

Hence, logic shows that Israeli fails in terms of adhering to democratic standards.

No, I am not calling other democracies amateurs. The point is, when assessed by the standards of democracy Israel fails; when assessed by the standards of most other western democracies, Israel fails.

The point about the Olympic athlete and the amateur, which you missed, was that when one aspires to achieve the highest level one needs to compare acts and achievements against the highest level.

In the modern world modern, liberal democracies are considered to offer the greatest levels of freedoms and human rights.

Israel classes itself in this category but then uses a benchmark to compare itself, not with functioning modern liberal democracies, but with non-democratic, non-liberal, often repressive states.

When you compare Israel to non-democratic, non-liberal States int he Middle East of course it looks good but it is meaningless. When you compare Israel to other western democratic societies, it looks bad.

Ergo, when you compare an Olympic athlete to an amateur they will look good; when you compare them to other Olympic athletes they may look bad. That was the point.

Not that there is much point in making points here since the general standards of posts seems so low and most people prefer to name-call, abuse, dismiss and demonise instead of participating in intelligent, adult conversation.

Foolish of me to think reason could be found against such rant.

You keep believing Jews are under threat .... they aren't; you keep believing Israel is in danger .... it isn't; you keep believing Israelis can do no wrong while they commit great atrocities and you will truly doom this troubled little nation.

Israel's only hope lies in truth: denial is the way of death.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:49:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

You are a liar and an anti-semite. "Zionists" NEVER used 'land without people for a people without a land,'

That phrase is one of the MANY lies that anti-semites have falsely attributed to "Zionists." And YOU are just the latest sucker.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:53:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

rhross,

A arab Israeli can marry a japanese person and bring them to Israel.

The olympian Israeli democracy looks just as good as the olympian danish, english, french, american, and south african democracies.

Sorry, but normally only antisemites try to lull jews into a sense of safety such as you are bleating. Too much addamo for us jews.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:09:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

As far as I am aware Israel is home to Arabs, Russians and other eastern europeans, north Africans, western europeans, Black Africans, Asians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, athiests, and on and on. Are you capable of providing a similar case for the multiculturalism of the surrouinding nations?

Jordan and Syria might be a good start. This should be fun.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:23:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You are correct RHRoss,

It is next to impossible to debate this topic without having it descend into the gutter. It's a sad reality that reason is clearly lost on such people. This is especially obvious when you expose these people as the moral cretins tnat they are. I see you have already met our resindet bottom feeders, Neolety and Ibraham.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:30:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neoleftychick, you need to do some reading of history.
Israel was not created by legal land purchases.
It was created in 1948 after UN resolution 181 imposed partition upon Palestine. Israel was created because the international community imposed its decision upon Palestinians. The majority of people living there at the time were non-Jewish. Naturally they opposed it.
Certainly some land was bought legally but the actual creation of the State came about through dictate and colonisation.
in addition early Zionist groups had an active policy of terrorising, or killing, and dispossessing the Palestinians.
The truth is easy enough for you to find and has in fact been written about in detail in recent years by a number of Israeli historians.
Not surprisingly, the Palestinians, with their allies, opposed this partition and colonisation and resorted to war (as the American Indians, New Zealand Maoris and Australian Aborigines did. They lost and were occupied. As were the other peoples in colonised nations.

The difference is the other modern colonisers offered full citizenship rights to those they had colonised.

And by the way, winners of wars do not get to keep the land they occupy. Read a bit more history, modern history that is, no biblical, and you will see this. Winners particularly do not get to keep occupied land when they refuse to offer the people living there full and inalienable rights.

Israel refuses to do this because it wants to try to maintain a Jewish State. One can understand some of the reasons behind this but it remains racist and in the long term, impossible.

Israel's greatest tragedy is that the US has failed to act as a friend and has allowed and enabled (funded) the continued dispossession and colonisation.

Israeli policy, for a long time, has not been defence.... it doesn't need it with nuclear weapons and the worlds most powerful nation standing behind it, not to mention the support of the international community .... it's policy has been to make life so impossible for the Palestinians that they will leave.

It won't work of course. It never does. It just creates resistance. If Israelis had been wiser and better led they would have done all that they could to make life for the Palestinians as good as it could be .... because, when that happens, birth numbers drop.

As it is the suffering and misery inflicted on the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs has just seem their birth rates boom. At tne end of the day, this, if nothing else makes a Jewish state impossible.

Because, unless Israel returns to the orginal 48 borders and helps to create a viable Palestinian State, in time the world will demand that Israel, if it is going to control all of the land of Palestine as its own, gives full rights to all Palestinians.

The irony is that the desire for a Jewish State is what is destroying Israel.

What can never be justified, even if one chooses to be flexible about the original dispossession and colonisation, is the brutality of the occupation and the continued colonisation that has taken place.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:30:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neolefty chick:
Read the history of early zionism and you will find the slogan there. The ones written by Zionists mind you.

As to the multiculturalism of Israel's neighbours: they are very multicultural, as are most nations on this planet, particularly in the Middle East.

You can be Syrian and Jordanian without being Muslim but you can't be Saudi Arabian without being Muslim just as you can't emigrate to Israel without being Jewish.

You don't have to be Jewish to be a guest worker.... but you do, or say you are, to be Israeli.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:35:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

Oh trust me. I have read my history. So well in fact that I am the most knowledgeable poster here.

In fact the "colonisation" you speak of WAS legitimate land purchases. And which colonial power did the migrating Jews report back to? After all, that is what a "colony" is. ;)

I challenge YOU to go and read the early books. I also challenge you to tell us all what YOU mean by the word "Zionist." ;)

Chop! Chop! You've got a lot of work to do before you get up to speed.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:35:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

The entire Muslim Arab world has behaved unspeakably against Israel. Israel's legitimacy is rock solid. The terrorist death cult members yapping at its heels are barbaric and do not deserve our respect.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:37:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

P.S. name calling does not an argument make. It merely reflects the lack of an argument.

As to me being anti-semitic. There is nothing I have said that is anti-semitic.

This is anti-semitic: Jews are dishonest. So is: Arabs are dishonest for that matter.

I don't believe either of those things.

Israel has committed great wrongs aginst the Palestinian people is not anti-semitic, it is a fact.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:38:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

I see. So you cannot show that the surrounding nations are multicultural. And yet I tell you Israel is home to Arabs, Russians and other eastern europeans, north Africans, western europeans, Black Africans, Asians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, athiests, and on and on.

Why do you ignore this discrepancy? Are you so ethically-challenged that you cannot admit when you are wrong? You will never learn anything in life with bigotry like that.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:44:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie said...

“Israel is the only country in the world not eligible to sit on the security council. More that 5% of all UN resolutions are against Israel.”

Can we get real here? You are suggesting that the fact that 5% of all UN resolutions are against Israel, is evidence that Israel is being unfairly targeted. Could it be possible that this many resolutions is representative of the number of time Israel has thumbed it’s nose at the international community?

Can you picture Saddam using that defense at his trial? "Your homour, all these charges against me is evidence that that I am being victimised." I know, bad example and how can I possibly compare Israel to Saddam.

Just pointing out the ludicrousness of your logic.

“Israel is nothing like South Africa. Israel is in this situation because the arabs keep trying to wipe Israel of the map - and kill the Jews.”

I’m sure that SA white supremacists made similar arguments for the preservation of apartheid. Is the reason that more settlements are being built because of Arabs trying to kill Jews? Is the reason 10 thousand hoes were bulldozed because of Arabs trying to kill Jews?

“What about the countries that Jews aren't even allow to enter? What about the countries where non Muslim's have not rights at all? What about countries where women are treated worse than dogs?”

This goes both ways Melanie. Maybe they to feel this is necessary for security reasons. The Lavon Affair (aka Suzanna Project) may have given some countries reason to be vervous.

“That would be wonderful Addamo if it wasn't the case - but it is not. Your basic assuption is that there is no threat. What if you are wrong.”

If I’m wrong then I would definitely hope that all Jews are protected under international law and that all Western countries would rise to the challenge. At is stands, there is absolutely not a shred of evidence to suggest I’m wrong. On the contrary, Jews are revered and respected throughout the West.

You ignore everything going on because you know that is the one thing that can legitimise Israel.”

Tell me what is going on that proves Jews, as a people, are under threat of extermination?
“Therefore when the Immans preach in Mosques around the globe to kill Jews, you ignore it.”

Just like Pat Robertson is ignored when he makes a stupid remark. These people are insignificant whacos who no one takes seriously.

“When Government Leaders around the world accuse Jews of controlling the world you ignore it.”

Given the way the media is whipped up into a frenzy every time this happens, it’s pretty impossible to ignore. These people discredit themselves by such remarks. They are their own worst enemy.

“When anti-Semetic incidents around the world are far more violent than ever before, you ignore it. “

Like what? Apart from what is taking place in Israel/Palestine (which is essentially a civil war) what violent crimes are being committed against Jews around the world Melanie? Facts please. Not hyperbole.

Incidentally, Israel’s legitimacy is established and beyond dispute. It is a country is no less legitimate that Australia, so let’s drop that canard shall we?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:50:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Hey neo,
The multiculturalism of other nations is irrelevant. The multiculturalism of Israel is irrelevant.

The only relevant thing is the fact that non-Jews in Israel do not have equal rights.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:51:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addamo

What do "white supremacists" have to do with Israel? Israel is home to Arabs, Russians and other eastern europeans, north Africans, western europeans, Black Africans, Asians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, athiests, and on and on. Are you capable of providing a similar case for the multiculturalism of the surrounding nations?

Jordan and Syria might be a good start. This should be fun.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:54:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

Not relevant, eh? Why not? Why do think it is reasonable to hold Israel to standards that you are not willing to hold all nations to? This is precisely ther sort of anti-semitism we are pointing out. Your prejudiced bias.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:02:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Neo,

Take your pills darling and remember to breath. You sound like your going to explode.

It seems to have gone over your head that I made no refernce to multiculturalism in my post.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:11:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

I am wondering if you are able to compare the levels of education, life expectancy, income, civil rights, etc. of non-Jews in Israel with Jews, Christians, and even Muslims and Arabs in say, the PA, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.

THIS should be fun. Squirm away.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:11:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neo,
LIsten carefully because I am not going to repeat it again.

The multiculturalism of Israel and others is not relevant because it is not an issue and has nothing to do with the current topic: ie the occupation and colonisation of Palestine.

What is relevant, as has been stated before, is how well Israel holds to its purported values as a modern, liberal democracy.

It does not do well when compared to the stated values, nor the performance of other modern, liberal democracies.

In some instances it does better than non-democratic societies but that is not the point.

In the same way that you can only compare Australia or the United States to other modern, liberal democracies if you are to reach any meaningful conclusion ... so too must you compare Israel.

You can't compare Australia to Indonesia, nor the United States to China in the same way you can't compare Israel to Syria, Jordan or Saudi.

If Israel decides it does not want to be democratic, or does not claim to be, then you can compare it to its neighbours.

Ditto, when Syria or Jordan become democratic, then you can compare them to Israel and vice-versa.

You seem to have trouble grasping this concept. You have to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges, not apples with oranges or vice-versa, if you are to reach any sort of meaningful conclusion.

That is, if you should wish to reach any sort of meaningful conclusion which may of course not be the case.

Interestingly, I have posted on other sites in regard to the Israeli/Palestinian issue, but not for a couple of years now, and am struck by how the same posts always come up .... the tactic seems to remain the same;

ignore the actual issue
get people bogged down on meaningless trivia
respond to comment and information with insults

One could almost believe that posters like yourself are set up to derail any kind of meaningful discussion.

Now why would that be?

You don't have to answer. This is not a debate of any substance to I leave you to your puff posts.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:15:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

RHRoss,

You make a good observation. Whenever the question of Israel's foeign policy and human right's record is raised, defenders try to frame th eargument as to being one concerning Israrel's right exists or it's legitimacy.

A classic and entirely predictable disatraction.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:15:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

I am interested in why you so arbitarily choose Australia and the US as the appropriate standards. Please explain to us all where Israel falls short as a liberal democracy compared to Australia and the US.

Also please inform us how Australia and the US would have reacted had seven surrounding nations acted the way the Muslims have since 1947?

As Israel is only 57 years old I find it odd that you insist on the standards of much, much older nations. You see this is called anti-semitism. You are imposing discrimantory standards on multicultural and multiracial Israel that you do not require its racist neighbours to live up to.

You really have become too tedious and sad. But it is good to get you people on the public record.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:22:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neo,

it doesn't have to be australia or the US, pick the UK, Germany, France.... pick any modern liberal democracy. It doesn't matter. Norway, Sweden, Holland, the point remains the same.

Israel does not provide equality of citizenship. The others do. Now, while Australia, the US, UK and some others have slipped because of their invasion of Iraq, they are slightly ahead of Israel because they are not colonising.

But, if you like, the best performing liberal democracies are neither occupiers nor colonisers. These are the optimum standards by which Israel, because of what it claims to be, is judged.

The reason that Israel, the youngest colonising nations, is compared with older ones like the US and Australia is because, in historical terms, we are modern colonising nations.

It is only in the past couple of hundred years that society has become civilized enough to consider colonisation a wrong.

That is why the 'younger' colonisers, like Australia, NZ, US, Canada, South Africa.....have been called to account. And why the youngest, Israel, is called to account.

As to how Australia or the US would have reacted if the Indians or the Aborigines had brought in allies to fight the invaders.... irrelevant.

It's not a defence when you commit a crime to say somebody else did the same thing.

The fact is, the Americans Indians did join together with allies like the French and the Spanish so there is nothing unusual about the Arab alliance to fight against invasion.

But, as I said before, and of course you ignored, the core issue is not the occupation per se: but the longevity and brutality of that occupation and the colonisation and dispossession that has been carried out as a part of it.

You could argue with some justification that Israel, despite being the coloniser, when attacked, had a right to defend and when it won, a right to occupy .... in the short term.

No-one can argue with any justification that such an occupation should be long-term, nor that that occupation should involve increased dispossession, human rights abuses and greater colonisation.

The wrongs of the initial colonisation and subsequent occupation pale into insignificance when compared to the wrongs perpetrated against the Palestinians over the past half a century.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:47:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Neo,

Are you suggesting that Israel's youth is a justification for it falling short of these "standards"?

What is this abotu public record BTW? Do you consider yourself an enforcer fo the thought poolice.

I also find it ammusing tha you stil lregard yourself as the most knowledgeable poster on this forum. You knwo a lot about very little and have admitted to lacking insight.

How does such a walking bank of knowledge buy the crap abotu Iraqi being a role model of democracy in light of the reality on the ground? A walking contradiction you are.

Do you honestly believe that Israel has not done anything untoward since it's birth in relation to the conflicts it has participated in?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:48:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

You cannot be taken seriously. Come back when you work out what "colonise" means, you fool. For starters being a coloniser is in no way antithetical to being a democracy.

Please. This is play school.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:50:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

In this day and age, it most certainly is Neo.

The fact that you say something does not make it a fact.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:54:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addamo

Do you want my totally honest opinion? I think Israel has shown immense restraint. If it had been me I would annihilated every last one of them if not in 1948, then in 1967 or 1973. The Muslims really need to thank their lucky stars that the US was able to force Israel not to do what it should have.

We would all then have been saved from the daily tedium of the tawdry whingeing and excuses of the likes of you and your merry band of Muslim male losers.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:56:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You poor dear, having to put up with losers like us. It must be aweful for you.

You really were born in the wrong era. Good luck with your message darl. You'll need it.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:02:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

So you are admitting Israel is a coloniser? Good. It is an important start.

there is no chance of change without the ability to deal in realities.

As to democracies being colonisers, well, strictly speaking, given that the will of the people rules in a democracy, the subject of colonisation of Palestine should be raised at election time in Israel.

If it is not raised, and it has not been raised then the Government has no right to pursue policies of colonisation.

Even if Israel were to vote for colonisation such a move would still leave it in contravention of the Geneva Bill of Rights.... to which Israel is a signatory.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:03:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neo,
Don't you see the irony. You want to kill all the Muslims.... that's called genocide .... not very civilized and sadly reminiscent of the Nazi view where the inconvenient people were not Palestinians or Arabs but Jews, gypsies and homosexuals.

How come it is okay for you to want to annhiliate muslims to 'solve your problem' and yet it wasn't okay for the Nazis to annhiliate people to solve their problem?

Or would that be one rule for me and another rule for the rest?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:06:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Indeed RHRoss,

Poor Neo is proabably oblivious to how mcuh she reveals about herself. Someone who prides themselves on their intelect ad knowlegde, yet whom is so quick onthe draw to dish out abuse and insults at a moments notice.

Irony by the boat load.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:06:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Before you go and learn what "colonise" means, I suggest you also learn to read. I challenge you to show where i claim that Israel is a colonial power. If you cannot I expect a swift apology.

Why would it have been OK to murder the Muslim invaders? Oh dear.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:13:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

You are hillarious Neo,

After all the abuse, the slander and insults you have dished out to people on this forum, you want an appology?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:24:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

rhross

I see. You're just going to keep playing avoiding questions and not apologising when you are exposed as a liar. Quelle surprise for a terrorist lover.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:26:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neo,
We inhabit different planets. I believe that it was good people reached a point where they believed that murder was unacceptable, for any person, at any time, for any reason.
You clearly have not reached that point.
Thankfully, in this day and age murder is a crime and genocide is a crime against humanity.
One can only be grateful for that.
You do of course see that if it is okay for people to use murder as a problem solving mechanism, as you suggest, then it is okay for others to do the same.
That means, since you support killing Muslims because of your belief it's okay for them to kill you (and others) because of their beliefs.
Thanksfully people who think like you are a minority in this world.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:27:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

RHRoss,

So it's true that those who hate become what they hate.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:51:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neo,
How can I be a supporter of terror when you are the one who said that if you had been given the chance you would have annhiliated all the Muslims? You support genocide. Isn't that terror.
I support peace and am opposed to killing of any kind.
You think it is okay to kill people to solve a problem.... by extension that means you support suicide bombers who also believe in killing people to solve a problem.
You are on the same side as any terrorist who believes in murder as a problem solving mechanism.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:52:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

RHRoss,

There's apparently some truth to the theory that you become what you hate. Yet more irony.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:52:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Well, it's a psychological maxim that what we decry in others is what we deny in ourselves.

One of the most destructive things about Jewish culture is the belief in victimhood. You can see this cultural baggage in Armenians too, for somewhat similar reasons. Somehow the gypsies, who have great justification for it still, seem to have avoided it.

Jewish victimhood is entrenched in the religion and existed long before the Nazis. It's interesting standing at the wailing wall having a translator tell you what is being said.... all too often stories of victimhood that go back thousands of years.

The trouble with being a victim is that you must always belive you are right, that you are an innocent sufferer. This means everything must be projected out onto an enemy .... if you did not have one you would have to find one or create one.

I think this cult of victim is one reason why so many Israelis have been unable to recognise and accept that in the case of the Palestinians it is the Palestinians who are the victims and the Israelis who are the aggressor.

It's hard to give up victimhood. It makes you feel special; it makes you feel superior; and, when you get together with a whole lot of other 'victims' it makes you feel safe.

I guess if we become that which we deny in ourselves then that which we hate is that which we deny in ourselves.

One of the greatest tragedies for clear thinking Israelis and Jews is that they now grieve for the loss of Israel's soul and feel deep shame that Israel has become, in so many ways, like the Nazis who so victimised them.

But that's the problem with embedding victimhood in culture and religion .... it dilutes, if not destroys, perspective and reason.

I'm not sure what it will take to wake Israel up given the terrible things that are already done in her name. I just hope something will.

It's an interesting place. I'd like to see it succeed.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:11:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

addamo,
I was replying to you. Should have specified.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:12:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

RHRoss,

Yes it was taken as such and I agree entirely.

I posted something recently about the victim conscionesness that is perpetuated in the Jewish community. It is a poweful weapon and along with fear, and like you say, it is a uniting force.

I have had this discussion with people on this forum who appear to be convinced of impeding arrival of a day when the horrors of the Holocaust will be revisited collectively on the Jewish people.

In spite of no evidence to support such a claim, and the obvious intolerance of such a outcome, these people remain convinced that they will be forced to escape to the only safe place for them, Israel.

Thus for them critisim of Israel, is an assualt on their personal safety.

Furthermore, this victim mentality is supported by the seemingly held belief that Jews are universally hated by non-Jews. this creates what I believe is the self fulfilling prophecy, as conflict of opinion with non Jews materialises into what they belive is evidence of their persecution.

Truly amazing stuff.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:47:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

The addamo is so thick it's hard to see. As thje palestinians wrap themselves in victimhood, rhr attempts to find the most destructive thing about Jewish culture.

Let alone that arab kill their children on a regular basis for a matter of honor.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:52:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

addamo,
That's an interesting point about Jews 'needing' Israel to feel safe. Understandable of course given the history but somewhat dysfunctional as well.
I really do believe at the end of the day that people are more ignorant than evil and more damaged than cruel.
It's being able to see the humanity in the other. I guess as an occupier one is distracted by power and as a victim, in this sense the Palestinians, one is distracted by suffering.
the tragedy for Israel is that most of its people and most of its supporters are distracted by both power and suffering.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:31:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:31:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

ibrahamav,
you are moving away from the point. Negatives in Arab culture do not negate negatives in Israeli culture. Assessing the individual acts is what matters, within the context of culture and the ability of the individual to change culture.

In a supposedly liberal democratic society, like Israel, people have a great deal of freedom to bring about change, therefore they can be held to be more responsible for the wrongs committed in their name.

In a society without those freedoms, with less of a capacity to bring about change, the wrongs must be asssessed in the light of that.

No-one expects a child living under brutal parenting to have the same freedom to change as a child living in the freedom of enlightened parenting.
The same thing applies to cultures.

Any occupied people do not have to paint themselves into victimhood they are victimised.... it is a matter of degree. The brutality of the Israeli occupation is a matter of record, records established by Palestinians, Israelis and international observers.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:09:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You certainly have displayed that you are the proof of your second paragraph.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:10:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

ibrahamov,
good luck to you. you are clearly incapable of reasoned debate. If that is the best you can summon then it is probably all thatyou can summon.
Go lightly in the world. We are all in this together, whatever our race, creed or capacity.
There are no enemies beyond the demond we create in our own minds. There is no safe place; ergo, there is no dangerous place. There just is.
Your opinion is as valid as mine. The only criteria is to ask if what we believe brings us joy and a sense of peace. Take care.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:02:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

that was demons not demond. It has been a long day. the sentiments remain the same.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:07:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

The tact and the respect you have shown others onthis list is truly refreshing rhross.

Friday, January 20, 2006 12:21:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I wonder why anyone is concerned if a nazi shows respect?

I do not see why debate, layered with addamo, has any greater meaning or should have attention paid to it, because it's tone is respectful.

An antisemites opinion is not valid as his antisemitism is not valid. His opinion is as valid as Zundel's, Irving's, and loewensteins, as they are not based on facts.

But it is interesting that rhross admits he lives in a world not based on facts. Rather based on whatever he thinks up.

Friday, January 20, 2006 12:54:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

RHRoss is a Nazi? Can you be any more flippant with the use of such emotive and innapropriate language? So those who are eloquent and repsctful are Nazis is that right?

In typical fashion Ibby, you talk about fact withotu ever introducing any. Just meaningless hyperbole.

RHRoss has made criticisms of Israel and Israel alone and you have declared him an anti-Semite, which proves yet again that while you insist otherwise, you firmly believe that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

Speakign of Zundel, his assertions may indeed be bereft of fact, but woudl you care to explain then why he has bee prevented from introducing evidence as part of his defence?

Friday, January 20, 2006 1:47:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I never called rhr a nazi. Neither did I call him an antisemite. Even though he, like you, use terms and expressions favored by such.

I was using an analogy. Surely you've heard of them?

Because of these and other unsupported accusations, it is no wonderr people are using 'addamo' as a euphemism for bullshit.

As for Zudel. you must ask the German Justice system. Many democracies have rules and regulations as to admissible evidence. Most exclude items which have already been proven false.
He would not be allowed to introduce the protocols as proof that Jews are planning to rule the world.

Friday, January 20, 2006 2:46:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

Hey neo,
Have you sudied these yet?

"Making the land without a people
To "free up" the Negev for Jewish settlement, 140,000 Negev Bedouin face ethnic cleansing, writes Jonathan Cook "

or,

"'There is no hope that this new Jewish state will survive, to say nothing of develop, if the Arabs are as numerous as they are today." So spoke Menahem Ussishkin, at seventy-five, one of the oldest and most respected Zionist leaders. His audience on the afternoon of 12 June 1938 was the Executive Committee of the Jewish Agency, which was considering a plan by the British administration to divide Palestine between Arabs and Jews. For decades there had been strife between the two ethnic groups in the mandate territory and now the British administration was considering partition as the best way to end the conflict between the Jewish colonists and the indigenous Arab population. But partition would leave over 200,000 Arabs in the proposed Zionist state, and the leadership of the Jewish community in Palestine was grappling with the problem of how best to get rid of them."

or how about,

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."

Source : Mrs. Golda Meir. Statement to "The Sunday Times", 15 June, 1969."


Where are the Palestinians..? Are they over here? Noooooo. Are they over here? Noooooo...(heheheeeeh)

Friday, January 20, 2006 8:33:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Leave it to our resident ape to take comments out of context.

Palestinian people do not exist

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 11, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com


A provocative headline? It's more than that. It's the truth.

Truth does not change. Truth is truth. If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.

And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.

You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people."

The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir's "racism." They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception.

What they don't like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth – that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.

So, despite the fact that conventional wisdom has now proclaimed that there is such a thing as the Palestinian people, I'm going to raise those uncomfortable quotations made by Arafat and his henchmen when their public-relations guard was down.

Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:


The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.


That's pretty clear, isn't it? It's even more specific than Golda Meir's statement.

Friday, January 20, 2006 8:49:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

neoleftychick said...
" rhross
You are a liar and an anti-semite. "Zionists" NEVER used 'land without people for a people without a land,'
That phrase is one of the MANY lies that anti-semites have falsely attributed to "Zionists." And YOU are just the latest sucker. "


Wow! That's a new one neo.

Wait a minute, what's this from Wikipedia, that famous anti-semitic on line rag?

"Israel Zangwill (February 14, 1864 - August 1, 1926) was a British-born Zionist and writer.

His early life was spent in the East End of London, and he was a teacher in the Jewish Free School there. In later life, his friends included Jerome K. Jerome and H. G. Wells. He wrote a very influential novel Children of the Ghetto (1892), and his play The Melting Pot was a hit in the USA in 1908-1909. He also wrote mystery works, such as The Big Bow Mystery. However, he is best known for coining the slogan, "a land without a people for a people without a land" to describe the nation that is now Israel."

Well fuck me. Now I am in two minds. Do I believe this? Or do I trust the assertions of neolefty?

(neo is a lying.......(shh, don't say it out loud))

Friday, January 20, 2006 8:52:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Leave it to our resident ape to take comments out of context. "

And then uses the Zahir Muhsein quote to prove...what?
The man said, "there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese".
How do you read that Ib. I read it that ethnically speaking they are the same people - not that "there are no Palestinians".

You so full of "it", it come out 'yo ears boy.
So don't give us the serial lie about Golda's quote being out of context. Read it again;

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
Source : Mrs. Golda Meir. Statement to "The Sunday Times", 15 June, 1969."

You use this lie to support your other lies like "Palis? There are no Pali's. they're Jordanians-so let them go back to Jordan.(hehehee. we are so f*kin clever, we just can't believe it)"

Friday, January 20, 2006 9:16:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Since the phrase regarding such a slogan was written by an english christian, Lord Shaftesbury, long before Zangill was born, you remain self-pleasuring.

Zangill may have adapted it, but he didn't come up with it. The christians did.

Friday, January 20, 2006 9:24:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

Ib,
Do / did Zionists use the slogan or not?

This is what I was refering to.

neoleftychick said...
" rhross
You are a liar and an anti-semite. "Zionists" NEVER used 'land without people for a people without a land,'
That phrase is one of the MANY lies that anti-semites have falsely attributed to "Zionists." And YOU are just the latest sucker. "

So neo is a ...speaker of untruths. And you are a .....propagandist.
(i'm real proud of you there orang, you nearly said the bad word)

Friday, January 20, 2006 9:30:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

The point that seems to be overlooked here in regard to the Palestinians is that what matters is now.
Even if one could argue that there was no identifiable Palestinian culture (which I doubt) before the creation of Israel, one could also argue there was no Israeli identity before the creation of Israel.
So what? Here is where we are at. There was no German nation until early last century and then there was.
There is now, quite clearly, an identifiable Palestinian people and they are a people who live under brutal occupation and, like all others, deserve their freedom.
Those are the salient facts; that is what needs to be dealt with.
The reality is that Israel exists, but it exists in its only legal sense on what was someone else's land.... it is also seeking to exist, in a completely illegal sense, on what remains of Palestine.
Two peoples have to find a way to share this land.
Each has a right to a viable State.
That means economically and militarily independent with some capacity for contiguous borders.
Just as it is no longer possible for Palestinians to remove Israelis from this land so it is not possible for Israelis to remove Palestinians from this land.
It can't happen because the international community would not let it happen. It won't happen because Palestinians do not have the power to do it and if Israelis wrought genocide upon the Palestinian people there is every chance that the world community would be so appalled they would call for the end of the Israeli state and for Palestine to be given back to the diaspora Palestinian community.
So, in short, the Israelis and Palestinians are stuck with each other.
Israel, at this point in time has all the power and therefore the greater responsibility to act for a fair division of the land.... the Palestinians have no power other than resistance, sadly often violent, and so can do little.
Both sides need to talk to each other but both sides will need to be forced to agreement.
This is where the US and the international community must come in. Israel will not relinquish any of its power and the Palestinians will not give up the only power they have .... violent resistance .... until it is clear that a just and lasting solution will be imposed not just upon them, but upon Israel as well.
If this does not happen the bloodshed will continue. Israel will continue upon its path as a pariah to the world at large, ultimately facing sanctions, as South Africa did, which will destroy its already weak economy.
At the end of the day there will either be one state ... a name would need to be decided ... including both peoples with full equal rights, or there will be two states, probably on the original borders of partition with access for Palestinians between Gaza and the West Bank.
My tip is that if it is two states, within decades they will function as one. Palestinians and Israelis have more in common with each other than anyone else. You only have to spend time in Israel to see that.
The only difference in any of the outcomes is the amount of death and destruction that takes place before resolution.
For anyone who cares about the future of Israel or Palestine, that is the only thing which matters.

Friday, January 20, 2006 9:44:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Quite clearly, the palestinians live under a system of their own devising. If it is brutal, it is because they are brutal.

They have been offered, many time, a country of their own. Many times, they have refused. And decided to become more brutal in the hopes that they could get a better deal.

As the situation is nothing like South Africa, Israel will not face sanctions.

Forgive me if I laugh at your tip.

Friday, January 20, 2006 9:59:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Israel already faces boycotts.
Sanctions will come. The South Africans tried to incarcerate their problem populations into bantostans.... prison-like areas. The Israelis are seeking to concentrate their problem people into prison-like areas. Gaza is an enormous concentration camp, surrounded by electric fences. Most Palestinian towns are prisons with exit and entry only through guarded gates. Many of them are now cut in half by the illegal wall Israel is building in an effort to try to make a Palestinian state impossible.

It won't work of course. Walls come down. The Berlin Wall did and so will this one.


Palestinians have never been offered what is their right: a viable state.

The occupation was brutal long before the first intifada. The dispossession was brutal. It tends to be.

However, the sign of a civilized human being is to respond to violence with self-discipline. The responsibility to do so is even greater when one has all the power as an occupying force does.

Most people will fight to free themselves from occupation. There is no difference between the Palestinians fighting for freedom than the French fighting the Germans, the Chechens fighting the Russians, nor, I might add, the Americans when they fought to free themselves from English rule.

The French, the Americans, the Chechens use the same tactics as the Palestinians.

One exception in a violent world is the Tibetans. They stand as an example to us all. Sadly though, despite the fact that they have not resorted to violence, the world has failed them.

When you look at the story of Tibet it is easy to see why most occupied peoples believe that fighting is the only way.

I understand why people resort to violence but I don't condone it. I can understand the motivations behind Israeli violence toward Palestinians and I can understand Palestinian violence in response but I condone neither.

Walls, bullets, bombs, brutality and prisons do not bring us safety or peace. They bring only a debased culture and greater fear.

Friday, January 20, 2006 10:25:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

But the boycotts are a joke.

The Palestinians did nothing to free themselves of being occupied by Jordan and Egypt.

You understand why people resort to violence, because they have the same screwed up logic that you have?

And most of the French were quite happy with German occupation. It allowed them to vent their antisemitism quite freely.

Friday, January 20, 2006 3:44:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

The Jordanians and Egyptians did not desire the destruction or dispossession of the Palestinians. Perhaps a reason why they did not mind the 'occupation.' Neither did they 'mind' as much the British 'occupation.'The British did not seek to take the land and destroy them as Israel does.

You miss the point, again, I understand the violence of all.... that includes Israel, to which you clearly attest. And yet I suspect you would not see their logic as screwed up. It is of course.

The Nazi ooccupation of France and the French resistance had nothing to do with Jews.... surprisingly ... the Jewish question is not the sole be all and end all of people's motives.

Of course there were French who were anti-jewish. If you were interested you might find out why. Racism came into it. And circumstance and ignorance.

In the same way that many Israelis are racist and are anti Arab ... which actually makes them anti-semitic. Again, because of racism, circumstance and ignorance.

You only have to be in Israel a short time to realise that many people are not only ignorant but completely racist about Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular. As good as the French, if not better, given their discriminatory practices and getting close to the Nazis in terms of their desire for 'cleansing.'

As I said in an earlier post, the cult of victimhood is seductive... you get to convince yourself you are always the good guy even when you commit terrible acts of evil against others.

But, like all those who commit acts of evil, ultimately it catches up with you.

Have you ever pondered why anti-semitism existed? Would you be able to accept that the Chinese were seen in a similar vein in many parts of the world for similar reasons? probably not.

It isn't actually anything to do with being Jewish. It tends to be the sort of discrimination meted out to people, who for whatever reason, and i am not saying they should not do it, set themselves up within society but apart from it.... who see themselves as somehow superior.

A lot of this is human nature and it does not make the response right. I don't condone it. But when people, for whatever reason, and often it is religous.... you can find it in histories of societies which are Christian or Hindu or Muslim ....set themselves apart, cannot, or will not, become a full part of the greater community they create a situation of division.

when the society is healthy and fully functional this often does not matter. But human beings are self serving and when things are bad, everyone looks for a scapegoat.

In times past people looked to Jews... they also looked to Cathars and Huguenots and countless other 'different' groups ...and now Israelis look to the Palestinians.

At the end of the day we are all the same. The tragedy for Jews and Israelies is that, given their history, they have learned so little .... or nothing ... and are now doing unto others what was done unto them.

There is a reason for everything which you will never find... and therefore never reach resolution ... as long as you deny the part you play in it.

it takes two. it always did. It still does. It doesn't make what happens right. It just says that nothing happens in a vacuum.

When Israelis can accept and admit the wrongs that they commit they will grow up. Then they have a chance of functioning as a mature society in the world.

They are not alone of course. This is a task for many societies. But the topic here is Israel's treatment of the people it occupies and the denial it uses to refuse to accept responsibility for its actions.

But that's probably a bit complex for you.

Take care. it will all work out.Whatever you think and whatever I think.

Friday, January 20, 2006 4:42:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Ibrahamav said...
'''''
And most of the French were quite happy with German occupation. It allowed them to vent their antisemitism quite freely. "

Ib, you're starting to be pathetic.

The only solution is; the Israelis get the message that the racist regime's days are numbered and they'd better start reconciliation with the Pali's. No more f*king caterpillar stinking D-9 armoured bulldozers knocking down Mrs Habib's house, - in fact take Caterpillar to court and bankrupt the motherf*kers for their role in the death of Rachel Corrie and the theft and murder of hundreds like Mrs Habib. The US stop propping up this belligerent racist regime. Without the fauning and slimeball support from the US, the Israelis - those that are worth a f*ck, will make peace with the people around them. The others can f*ck off back to Russia or Derbyshire - I rest my case. Over to you my hunchbacked propagandist for zionism.

Friday, January 20, 2006 7:25:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No wonder rhr is at a loss. He is now making things up. And now he excuses French antisemitism, and objects when his own examples are thrown back at him as proof of the opposite!

Sorry, rhr, but your displayed ignorance, no doubt from perusing hate sites, have left you so screwed up that it isn't worth the time to destroy every single one of your points.

As for our resident ape, he will be dust and the Israelis will continue to be a strong nation. I think I'll go buy some more stock in Caterpillar.

Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:23:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

ibrahamav
insults do not an argument make. Let alone debate. But this isn't of course. Sadly.

One of the major problems for Israelis is that there is little or no real, reasoned, informed debate about the problems that face them.

There is some, thankfully, because there are Israelis who care about justice and decency and human rights but their numbers are small and the majority of Israelis prefer to hide their heads in the sand and respond with ignorance and hatred.

It is impossible to win a war of occupation in the modern age which is why Israel will ultimately fail and so too will the US and its sycophantic allies.

It was possible in times past to win a war of occupation .... you merely killed or enslaved all the people you held under occupation.
But it is not allowed anymore and so occupations breed resistance which continues and intensifies the longer the occupation continues.

Israel has now bred a second generation of abused and angry Palestinians. The world may have ignored their plight in the main but at some point it will be impossible to ignore it anymore.
Justice always triumphs eventually.

To be honest, I actually feel the international community has not only failed the Palestinians, it has failed the Israelis.

Allowing Israel to use its power to continue the occupation and increase colonisation of Palestine has served only to corrupt and debase the society and culture.

The US holds greatest responsibility for this because the US, as Israel's backer .... in many ways Israel is no more than a satrapy of the US because it could not survive without American aid ...is the one that could have brought reason to to the issue.

The US, both officially and unofficially .... Jewish support at a private level .... encouraged Israel to build yet more colonial settlements and distracted Israelis from the main task .... that of building a functioning, free and healthy State.

The settlements cannot be held. They are illegal, all of them, but more than that, it is physically impossible to hold them without imprisoning Palestinians. That injustice means Israel must divert energy and much needed money to maintain the occupation army, the Palestinian 'prison states,' the defence of the illegal settlers ... no wonder Israel is heading for bankruptcy.

The other thing that the colonisation has destroyed is the tourist industry. Visitor numbers have dropped, hotels and restaurants are closed or losing money, the economy is weak, unemployment figures are up .... money that should have gone into building a First World country .... much of Israel is very Third World, ... has gone on the military, which is very First World indeed.

There is an insanity to it all. Israelis deserve better. Here they are with one of the world's most up to date military machines, armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, and an inferior quality of life, little hope of a peaceful future, and a tottering economy.

And all for what? Land! Land that was never meant to hold so many people. Land that does not have enough water to support so many people.

The dream of Israel, and many people admired that dream despite the fact that it involved dispossession of others .... is in tatters because of dysfunctional thinking and appalling leadership.

One can only hope that whoever replaces Sharon comes with reason and not a raised fist.

Israelis who do look around can only see the destruction that has been wrought by a policy of war, aggression and paranoia.

If you really care about Israel ibrahamav then now is the time to stop talking about past wrongs and to deal with the now.

There is only one question:
What needs to be done to provide justice and a decent quality of life to both Palestinians and Israelis as they share this small but precious piece of land?

Saturday, January 21, 2006 5:05:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

The insults, themselves do not make a debate, but neither does your premise, as it is not based on truth.

Israel, as one of the freeist societies on earth, has ample debate. That you deny this is just one reason to turn from your faulty arguments. Why argue with a moron who can't get the first fact straight?

The palestinians have bred 4 straight generations educated to hate and kill Jews.

Go peddle your addamo elsewhere, no one here is buying such damaged goods.

Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:29:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

ibrahamav,
You don't read things or else you have difficulty understanding.

The subject being discussed was debate within Judaism, not within Israeli society.

The comments therefore referred to religious debate.

And Israel can no longer claim to be one of the most free societies on earth as it once could because Israeli Arabs are definitely not as free as their Jewish counterparts.

Until each and every Israeli has exactly the same freedom, not just to debate, but to travel, marry and live then Israel will remain one of the least-free democratic societies on earth.

Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:43:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Israeli Arabs are as free as their Jewish counterparts. They all have the same freedoms.

Which makes Israel one of the most free democratic societies on earth.

Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:25:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Saturday, January 21, 2006 5:29:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Israeli Arabs are as free as their Jewish counterparts. They all have the same freedoms.
Which makes Israel one of the most free democratic societies on earth. "

Haaaaaahaaaaaaaa!!!!

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:31:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No facts? Just a quote from a neo-nazi website?

Sunday, January 22, 2006 1:01:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

RHRoss

OK, I've now worked out that you are still in High School parroting your parents' bigotry, so I'll go easy on you.

"We inhabit different planets. I believe that it was good people reached a point where they believed that murder was unacceptable, for any person, at any time, for any reason."

Really??? When exactly was that point? Have you told the billion Muhhamedans? It is a national sport for them. As they keep reminding us all to graphically “we love death more than you love life.”


"You clearly have not reached that point."

Huh? I respect very much my culture and its laws. My culture’s rejection of murder as ever legitimate I respect very deeply. Self-defence in war is, of course, another matter all together.


"Thankfully, in this day and age murder is a crime and genocide is a crime against humanity."


Huh? In this 'day and age?' Well, in my family and in my culture this has ALWAYS been the case. What else have you people not caught up with? Using women and children as human shields? Suicide bombers?


"One can only be grateful for that.
You do of course see that if it is okay for people to use murder as a problem solving mechanism, as you suggest, then it is okay for others to do the same.
That means, since you support killing Muslims because of your belief it's okay for them to kill you (and others) because of their beliefs."


Unfortunately, I am now only too aware of your tactics. Sadly, it is the way of the Muslim to think that lying is legitimate.


"Thanksfully people who think like you are a minority in this world."

Apart from the 1 billion Muslims!

Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:31:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

RHRoss


"Well, it's a psychological maxim that what we decry in others is what we deny in ourselves."


A “psychological maxim” hah? Is that like really important? Do you have ANY idea what you mean or are even trying to say? Did you hear it on Oprah?



"One of the most destructive things about Jewish culture is the belief in victimhood...Jewish victimhood is entrenched in the religion and existed long before the Nazis. It's interesting standing at the wailing wall having a translator tell you what is being said.... all too often stories of victimhood that go back thousands of years...I think this cult of victim is one reason why so many Israelis have been unable to recognise and accept that in the case of the Palestinians it is the Palestinians who are the victims and the Israelis who are the aggressor."

Victims, eh? Oh I think one or two Jews might take some comfort in the fact that they are the most accomplished ethnic group on the planet. How many Nobel Prizes have the Muslims received again? Oh that’s right. Yasser Arafat got the world’s only Nobel Prize for Lying and Terrorism. How many Muslims are Professors in Physics, Maths, Literature, Classics, Economics, Law, Medicine at the Ivy League, MIT, Caltech, Stranford, Berkeley, UCLA, Oxbridge, Sorbonne, Heidelberg, Melbourne, Sydney, ANU? Top financial geniuses? Arts entrepreneurs? Lawyers? Silicon Valley top-guns? Poets? Philosophers? Comic geniuse? Or actually ANY comedy! Concert pianists? Rock stars? Political agitators? Even the top pro-Palestinian scholars are all Jewish or Anglophile Christians!!!

Imagine the mess the poor things would be in were it not for Chomsky, Finkelstein, Benny Morris, Edward Said, Hanan Ashrawi, Tariq Ali, Christopher Hitchens, Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Journal of Palestine Studies, Fisk, Pilger, and on and on and on…



"It's hard to give up victimhood. It makes you feel special; it makes you feel superior; and, when you get together with a whole lot of other 'victims' it makes you feel safe."


Exactly. That’s why so many violent African American prisoners convert to Islam. I understand that a similar process occurs in our jails among impressionable and desperate young indigenous men. And that explains why the entire “Palestinian” narrative is pumped with passive words. Occupied. Dispossessed. Cleansed. Cheated. Victims of injustice. Ignored. Discriminated against. Unfairly treated.



"One of the greatest tragedies for clear thinking Israelis and Jews is that they now grieve for the loss of Israel's soul and feel deep shame that Israel has become, in so many ways, like the Nazis who so victimised them."


Actually as Ibraham said here, and the NYT’s David Brookes wrote recently, the Israelis are finishing the wall and getting on with their lives, and gradually just forgetting that the fetid Islamic sore pusses all over the rest of the middle east and increasingly the world.

You know…winning Nobel Prizes, enjoying a per capita GDP 4 to 5 times higher than the Islamic dumps it surrounds. Exporting billions in high tech from its very own Silicon Valley, holding Gay Pride marches that Muslims from all over the Middle East can attend without the fear of being buried up to their heads and being run over by a tractor while thousands of their “brothers“ cheer and squeal “Allah Akbah!” Encouraging their daughters to go to Harvard Business school without threatening to stone her to death to avenge the “honour” of her sicko male relatives. Yada, yada.


The denial of the Arab Muslim male continues to bore us all to tears. The poor thing can't realize that he's been bitchslapped.

Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:36:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Adammo


"I have had this discussion with people on this forum who appear to be convinced of impeding arrival of a day when the horrors of the Holocaust will be revisited collectively on the Jewish people."


Oh dear. I think the Israelis said “never again” a long, long time ago. In the meantime the Muslims are happily putting into effect their own Final Solution. Their very own Islamocide! What clever things they are!



"In spite of no evidence to support such a claim, and the obvious intolerance of such a outcome, these people remain convinced that they will be forced to escape to the only safe place for them, Israel.Furthermore, this victim mentality is supported by the seemingly held belief that Jews are universally hated by non-Jews."


Actually, they’re pretty confident that they are thought of very highly by those who matter. They take for granted the seething jealousy of 1 billion Muslims.

But 1 million Muslims are little more than an annoyance compared to the good relations with the much more important West and north Asians. You know, those with the highest IQs, after the Jews themselves that is.

Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:38:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

RHRoss


"you are moving away from the point. Negatives in Arab culture do not negate negatives in Israeli culture...In a supposedly liberal democratic society, like Israel, people have a great deal of freedom to bring about change, therefore they can be held to be more responsible for the wrongs committed in their name."


So in typical infantile Islamic manner nobody is responsible for Islamic wrongs?

Immature children.

Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:40:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neo,
One of the most unpleasant aspects of Israel's supporters is this belief that Jews are superior.

Citing Nobel Prizes and the like is racist, childish and actually, if one goes into a per capita performance of cultures, incorrect.

The Arabs were civilized when others were still barbarians. Much of our modern knowledge is drawn from Arab learning.

The beliefs of Judaism and Christianity, can all be traced back to the ancient Egyptians and beyond .... to the ancient lands that now constitute Iraq.

But so what? The reality is that every human being in this world is equal. We all come from the same place.

The divisions that arise do so because of fear and are entrenched by religion.

By all means compare Israel to its neighbours. It is meaningless. Compare Israel to its peers and you get an accurate picture of how poorly it performs.

Have you been to Israel? I have. More Third World than First despite some of its achievements.

Israel is destroying itself because of what it spends on its military machine.

On the other hand, take Dubai or Muscat, very sophisticated cities.

You are living in a fantasy which is probably why so many of your statements are fantastic.

Anyone who does wrong must be held responsible, whether Islamic or Jewish, Israeli or Palestinian.

Does Israel, for the moment anyway, have a capacity as a free and democratic nation to ensure that happens? Yes.

Do non-democratic, non-free nations have that ability? No.

It does not mean that you ignore wrongs committed in such societies but merely that you take into account the difficulties, if not impossibility, facing citizens of those societies in bringing about change.

Jewish experience shows just how impossible it is to act freely when one is held imprisoned by others.

But this is not a debate. This is a bigoted rant on your part and so I leave you to it.

Monday, January 23, 2006 7:31:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

RHRoss said...
neo,
One of the most unpleasant aspects of Israel's supporters is this belief that Jews are superior.

Antony states it in his arguements all the time. Here is his statement regarding his belief of Jewish superiority:

"And as a Jew, I believe it is my responsibility to speak out when abuse occurs..."

Monday, January 23, 2006 12:48:00 pm  

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