Reuters reports an important development in Israel's understanding of the conflict:
"Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said on Monday acceptance within the international community of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state would erode with time as conflict with the Palestinians dragged on.
"Unless progress was made towards establishing a Palestinian state as mandated by a U.S.-backed peace road map, Livni said in a speech, pressure could grow to turn Israel into a bi-national state in which Israelis and Palestinians would share power.
"With a higher Palestinian birth rate, that could mean the end of a Jewish majority in what is now Israel, she said, giving voice to an argument interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has raised for trading occupied land for peace.
"'I say that time works to our disadvantage, not only from the standpoint of demographic numbers...but also from the standpoint of the legitimacy of a state for the Jewish people in the eyes of the international community,'" Livni told a policymakers' forum near Tel Aviv."
I've long believed that a bi-national state is the ideal way to resolve the conflict, but it must be reached in stages. Therefore, a two-state solution is the best way forward for the foreseeable future. A full and frank appreciation of suffering on both sides, reparations for Palestinian losses in 1948 onwards, the eradication of the occupation, a shared Jerusalem and joint environmental policy will, at some point in the future, be the only solution.
Livni - Jews Sans Frontieres rightly asks: "Where else on the world would a politician so obsessed with 'demographics' be described as 'centrist' and by Reuters too? - has merely articulated the fear within many Jews. Can you imagine the outcry if George Bush publicly stated he wanted a white majority to remain in the US? When Israel talks about "demographics", however, it's labelled "pragmatism."
"Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said on Monday acceptance within the international community of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state would erode with time as conflict with the Palestinians dragged on.
"Unless progress was made towards establishing a Palestinian state as mandated by a U.S.-backed peace road map, Livni said in a speech, pressure could grow to turn Israel into a bi-national state in which Israelis and Palestinians would share power.
"With a higher Palestinian birth rate, that could mean the end of a Jewish majority in what is now Israel, she said, giving voice to an argument interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has raised for trading occupied land for peace.
"'I say that time works to our disadvantage, not only from the standpoint of demographic numbers...but also from the standpoint of the legitimacy of a state for the Jewish people in the eyes of the international community,'" Livni told a policymakers' forum near Tel Aviv."
I've long believed that a bi-national state is the ideal way to resolve the conflict, but it must be reached in stages. Therefore, a two-state solution is the best way forward for the foreseeable future. A full and frank appreciation of suffering on both sides, reparations for Palestinian losses in 1948 onwards, the eradication of the occupation, a shared Jerusalem and joint environmental policy will, at some point in the future, be the only solution.
Livni - Jews Sans Frontieres rightly asks: "Where else on the world would a politician so obsessed with 'demographics' be described as 'centrist' and by Reuters too? - has merely articulated the fear within many Jews. Can you imagine the outcry if George Bush publicly stated he wanted a white majority to remain in the US? When Israel talks about "demographics", however, it's labelled "pragmatism."
17 Comments:
What, Ed, didn't you know that Islam is about take over the world and steal 'our' women?
I'll send you a pre-warning email.
Strange. It appears that Antony's blog doesn't want you visiting either one of my sites.
Dont worry Mike. I for one have the links bookmarked :D
I heart AWH!
Other than showing how fasr your head is up AL's ass, your post was so much drivel.
Israel has one of the worst human right's records? Are you that stupid or deliberately lying?
That AL doesn't really know much about what he is commenting on is the issue.
Enough addamo slaying for the moment. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
I don't know why neo is saying that Israel is not a Jewish nation, unless there is some legal definition that shows it is not. Perhaps, unlike in most all islamic nations, the jewishness does not translate into unequal rights for its citizens.
Of course Israel is a Jewish state. It is its sole raison d'etre!
Most of Israel's paranoia arises from this source.
It's why Israeli Arabs who leave Israel to live somewhere else for a time.... say for work ... can't return; it's why Israelis who marry Palestinians or Arabs can't bring them to Israel; it's why Israeli Arabs can't build homes or build onto their homes in the same way that other Israelis can; it's why Israeli Arabs are not allowed to bring their parents, no matter how ill they are, to live with them in Israel; it's why Israel has sought out any Jews, anywhere, or even people who might think they could be Jews, like a lot of Russians, and encouraged them to emigrate to Israel .... it's all about maintaining the numbers of the Jewish state.
It's also why Israel has continued its colonisation and land theft .... more land means more immigrants means more Jews and maybe more of us than the Palestinians.
It's a racist concept and doomed to fail by any democratic or civilized standard but it is what the State of Israel was founded upon and is still about.
It is good to hear voices of reason coming out of Israel in regard to the need for a Palestinian state because it really is the only way that a Jewish State can have any hope of continuing to exist.
Even with two states though a Jewish Israel is as doomed as an Islamic Saudi .... such concepts, as I said, are racist and backward ... they can't survive and will not survive in times to come.
I'd give a Jewish State, following the establishment of a palestinian state and reparation for the dispossession and colonisation, say, fifty years, max.
Israel has changed anyway since the time of its foundation and it will change more. Many Israelis are secular and very aware of the fact that perhaps there greatest threat comes not from without but within .... the religious nutters who impose their primitive views on everyone else.
That's an issue which will need to be settled and when it is Israel will emerge as a secular state, more interested in making money than curling their hair and the way to do that will be to co-operate with neighbours and establish economic ties. Ultimately, when all the religious paraphanelia is put where it belongs .... into people's private lives, a very long way from the State, you will have an economic confederation of Palestine/Israel because it is the only way that makes sense.
The same thing will happen to Islamic States. They too are backward. All nations founded on such concepts will fail.
The irony of it all is that Israelis would have a far better quality of life if they created one State now and gave up the Jewish State fantasy. As it is, because of this fantasy the Palestinians will get their State and they will get a viable one and they will get Jerusalem as their capital and all of the colonised land back ....
because they must. There is no other way as this article says, for Israel to remain a Jewish state.
The gods play sport with us. There is no doubt of that. So much blood and misery for pretty much nothing.
violet
You are right, fundamentalist Islam is stuck, but you overlook the fact that fundamentalist Judaism is stuck too .... the difference is that for the moment fundamentalist Muslims have power in a number of States.
What sort of scenario do you think you would get if fundamentalist Jews ran Israel? Something very similar to their Islamic counterparts.
Fundamentalists of all persuasion are problematic. Christians too.
And, given the rate at which orthodox Jews breed there's a good chance that any Jewish State, should it continue to survive, is going to be run by the fundamentalists eventually.
Even more crazy Shabbat rules. Although its fascinating the way the orthodox invent ways 'around' those rules when it suits them.
Most of Israel's paranoia comes from Suicide bombers.
Shabbat rules are very logical. Only idiots and ignorant jack asses would think them crazy.
Since you have no knowledge of the belief's of the Jewish orthodox, it must be another guess that you treat as a fact.
ibrahamav
I've been in Israel. I know which parts of the hotel you can get milk and which can't, which lifts work on Shabat and which don't. Sorry, the shabat rules are stupid and most secular Israelis agree.
The really unpleasant bit is where orthodox Jews attack the cars of secular Israelis who choose to drive on the shabat.
The same orthodox Jews who will use a hospital, with its lifts and electrical equipment on shabat if they are seriously ill; who will use a car to get to said hospital or to an important business meeting on shabat if they have to; who will fly on shabat if they have to; who will use one telephone if they have to....
The idiocy of it is the ways that are found around the rules... rules that were dreamt up in more primitive times and which have no place in a modern world.
Rules which the fundamentalists seek to impose on everyone.... would if they could.
Interesting too that the same orthodox who won't use a car on Shabat will carry a Kalishnakov...now there's priorities for you.
Fundamentalism of any kind is not only destructive it is irrational and silly.
Not wishing to abide by such rules is why so many Israelis are secular.
And what is the purpose of carrying a Kalishnakov on sabbath.
And the fact that some Jews may voice an opinion as to their feeling about such laws does not in anyway affect the validity of such law.
Unless you're a racist like AL and feel that being Jewish gives you some special right do to some racial superiority.
And the small number of Jews attacking cars driving on Shabbot is rather samll and only in certain areas.
They certainly aren't killing anyone over it as Fundimental Islamists are apt to do.
stev
I shall be fascinated to see what answers you get, if any.
You are right, there is no real threat to Israel except in terms of clipping its wings and making it behave properly. There can't be.
If there is a 'holocaust' it will be one that Israel brings upon itself by bombing the Iranians and releasing nuclear material to poison the air and water of the region; or being bombed in return by Iran ... but none of these things are going to destroy either Iran or Israel.
The only 'holocaust' in the Middle East at the moment is the one Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians.
Although fundamentalist christians do believe in armageddon and the destruction of things; the end of days as they call it.
Interestingly they have provided a great deal of support for Israel's continued colonisation but ironically they believe that when the 'time' comes, everyone but true christians will die, including the Jews. The good guys get lifted into something approximating a Muslim heaven with beautiful virgins and banquets and the like.... all very crazy and more than a bit sad.
addamo
quite right. One of the problems in the West, the free world, hmmmm, is the media monopolies that censor information, for various reasons.
Information is available on numerous websites but the average person does not bother with this. Most people in fact rely on the television for news which is even more of a worry for the US than Australia. News has become infotainment and little real news gets through.
We also live in a time of fear which politicians use to get into power and to stay in power and corporations use to sell things and the media uses to sell things.
Fear has in fact become an ephemeral companion and people do not want to ask too many questions, look too closely or think about it too much in case it becomes so real they are forced to do something .... take responsibility.
Most people simply do not care that Palestinians, Chechens, Zimbabweans, Tibetans and the rest suffer as they do. They do not care that some 100,000 Iraqis are dead thanks to cowardly US airpower and, on the military count of 7 wounded for 1 dead, probably close to a million Iraqis are maimed or injured.
In a world where 'greed is good' people care only about themselves, their hip-pocket, and their comforts.
Such a position not only lacks integrity, it is dangerous. But we human beings are slow learners at the best of times.
violet,
have you taken your medication today? If not you should.
The fact that you could arrive at the conclusions that you have is a sign of great delusion.
To remind you. The topic of holocaust was something others brought up. I took it to mean the greatest destruction since holocaust has come to mean in the Jewish lexicon, the worst thing that can happen .... the greatest destruction. Other people tend to use the same word in a similar way but it has particular impact for Jews. Understandably.
Do I think a 'holocaust' of any kind will happen? I don't know. As I said, great destruction, if it comes to Israel, will come because of its own actions.
Do Israelis deserve this? No-one deserves death and destruction.
Does this mean that when death and destruction come we are completely innocent? Not if you hold the views that I do and which I respect most other people do not hold, that we all contribute to what happens to us .... that we 'create' in a sense, our world, both at a micro and macro world.
I guess I don't believe in innocent victims anywhere. I believe we all play a part in what happens to us and only when we take responsibility for what happens to us can we have any hope of changing ourselves, our present and our futures.
Holocausts, whether Jewish, Armenian, Rwandan or Cambodian happen for many and varied reasons. They do not happen in a vacuum. They happen because of historical relationships and because of current circumstances.
They are always to be condemned, but, if we are to have a world without them we must understand how and why they happened.
Not only must we understand why Israelis are treating Palestinians as they are, but we also need to understand why Germans treated Jews as they did.
If one were to take it even further, and even less people believe this, but I do .... I believe that everything which happens to us is a lesson. That our experiences are created by us at a soul level and that our task is to learn to live and love our way through it without hatred, without violence .... and hopefully with a sense of humour.
In many ways this is a ridiculous world and it should not be taken too seriously.
Outrage is always a greater sign of the inward rage that makes people feel helpless, small and frightened.
We can strive for justice and honour in the world without being constantly outraged. A radical thought I know but it is possible.
By the way, jokes about medication aside, I do respect the fact that you care deeply about this issue. You just don't do your case any service by rabid, foaming responses.
addamo,
thanks for the support. I am a she not a he.
Addamo_01,
Why aren’t you therefore enlisted with the armed forces oh brave one?
Poor logic. Did you support Timor? Why weren’t you with the ADF? When the UN finally gets off its swollen lazy arse, will you be in the army they send to stop genocide in the Sudan? The ADF is made up of voluntary forces- and even though Antony wants that to change- that’s the way it’s going to stay for the foreseeable future. Your doing what the American left does, claiming you love the troops (don’t get in a frenzy yet, no doubt you do), and you want to see ‘our young boys’ come home. There not little boys, they’re men and women doing a great job that they are trained for (and NOT war criminals who ‘deserve’ to be defeated, Antony). If any non-military ‘chicken-hawks’ went over to Iraq to help, they’d just getting in the way.
Here Addamo_01, you might be interested in this guys blog:
http://americancitizensoldier.blogspot.com/
Rhoss,
The only 'holocaust' in the Middle East at the moment is the one Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians.
Is it a magical reverse Holocaust, the more Palestinians the evil Israelis kill, rape, and steal from, the quicker their numbers grow? Amazing stuff… I’m going to look in my wardrobe now, to see if I can find my way to Narnia.
Grow up, mate.
They are getting the message that there is too much addamo in the world. And you are supplying most of it.
The soldiers in the field don't give a shit about what Gonzales wrote.
Again, knowledge based on guesses and addamo.
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