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Tuesday, January 10, 2006

Settler mentality

Jewish extremists in Israel are organising:

"The path to an autonomous Judean state is riddled with obstacles, but Yekutiel Ben-Ya'acov, a marketing consultant from Kfar Tapuah, is not daunted.

Ben-Ya'acov, 41, who sees himself as a student of Rabbi Meir Kahane, together with hundreds of right-wing activists who share Ben-Ya'acov's vision, will gather at Yeshivat Hakotel in Jerusalem's Old City on Wednesday to stop future unilateral territorial compromises patterned after the Gaza pullout.

"'Our proposition, called the Judean Initiative, is a rejection of the Geneva initiative,' said Ben-Ya'acov. 'We want to be granted Jewish autonomy in all areas in Judea and Samaria populated by Jews.

"'Instead of handing control over to Arab terrorists we propose something identical to the present situation in the Gaza Strip - autonomy without statehood - except we want it for Jews. We would be a vital buffer zone for the State of Israel.'"

The settler movement suffered a major blow with the Gaza "disengagement" and, despite a majority of Israelis keen for further withdrawals, the colonists are aware that time is not on their side. In the meantime, they work furiously to uproot Palestinian livelihoods while the Israeli authorities ignore the problem.


Blogger Melanie said...

I saw a documentary on Zionist Extremists - crazy bunch. Just as well they are just a few hundred of them at most. Imagine if there were as many as the millions of Palestinians that support terrorist attacks against Jews. And imagine if the Israeli goverment encouraged it like the Palestinian Authority did by inciting them on Israel television or paying their families US$250 a month if they blew themselves up kill Palestinians - like the PA does. Imagine if they went on massive marches everyday wearing white sheets with holes in the eyes - or balaclavas - and suicide belts rapped around them and calling for 'death to Jews'- like Islamid Jihad,Hamas,Al-aksa etal does.

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:20:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Just imagine if the Jewish state had supported these extremists since 1967.
Oh wait...

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:37:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

Just imagine if the Arab world hadn't tried to wipe out Israel in 1967 and then left Israel with no one to negotiate with since in their minds Israel didnt exist.

In 1967, the Arabs once again attacked Israel, attempting to gain control of 100% of the land. As a result, Egypt lost control of Gaza, Jordan lost control of the West Bank, and Syria lost control of the Golan Heights. Israel offered to give back the territory in exchange for true peace. The Arab League responded with the "3 No's": No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel and no negotiations with Israel.

Imagine if the Arab world would accept Israel's existence what a different world we would live in.

Imagine if the world pressured the Arabs to accept Israel rather than accept their murderous attempts to wipe out the Jews.

The Palestinians would have had their own state in 1948 and Arabs and Jews would have lived peacefully.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:38:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Melanie, How dare you bring up the past! That has no bearing whatsoever on AL's point! Now stop it!

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:48:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...


Did the Arabs actually attack Israel in 1967, or was it a case of Israel pre-emotively striking as this link from the ALD would suggest?

In May 1967, Egypt and Syria took a number of steps which led Israel to believe that an Arab attack was imminent.

According to Wikepedia, "It began when Israel launched what it considered a pre-emptive attack against Egypt, following the latter's closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and the deployment of troops in the Sinai near the Israeli border, and after months of increasingly tense border incidents and diplomatic crises. By its end Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day."

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 2:01:00 am  
Blogger Agisthos said...

Germany struck first in 1939 against Poland as a means of 'protecting' itself. then against France and Russia for the same reasons.
If the Nazis had won, then history would be spun to this day portraying only their version of events.

Israel started the 1967 war, but in the brainwashed minds, they are always the eternal victims.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 2:40:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Yes, I remeber all the Polish armies poised to strike Germany and all of the radio addresses by the great Polish dictator threatening to turn Germany into a blood bath.

Sorry agi, but Egypt and Syria and Jordan were playing a game of 'chicken' with Israel, and they lost. Lost big time. Lost, lost, lost.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 2:57:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

Amazing that the whole pathetic situation of the Palestinians can be attributed to the Arabs many attempts to wipe out Israel and yet Israel is seen as the agressor. Yes Israel has a strong army because if it didn't it wouldn't exist. Yes Israel has had to act harshly but why is Israel held under more scrutiny than any other nation when no nation in the world has every day had to defend its very existence and still has to justify its very existence.
The Arabs say openly of their intentions to wipe out Israel and always have - yet Israels attempts at defence label label her as the aggressor. Read Hamas's Charter - not much different to Nazi ideology.

For decades (even before Israel was established)the Arab world has been speading blood libels and hatred against Jews which more than anything has cause the Arab hatred on Israel - not their love for the Palestinians:

Yet hald the NGO's, half the Churches etc support boycotts of Israel. You can understand why so many Jews might 'misinterpret' that as anti-semtism

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:38:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

Israel's neighboring Arab countries took a series of increasingly provocative and threatening actions May through June of 1967, along with stating very clearly their intentions to attack and destroy Israel. Israel tried to negotiate, find United Nations support, and other international diplomatic resolution failed. The United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) on the Egyptian-Israeli border were withdrawn without discussion. A US plan to stop the blockcade of Israeli shipping fell on deaf ears.
To compare this with the Nazis attacking Poland and France just highlights more than anything the vilification of Israel that the Arabs have found to be their best tool in the extermination of Israel is working so well. Makes you understand why Hitler had such and easy time. People believe what they want to beleive and most people have a deep seated hatred of Jews.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:00:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

It's a dammed minefield trying to figure out truth from distortion either way. Neither side can even agree on what took place (what was or what was not said) at Oslo or camp David, let alone agree on anything else.

Irrespective of whether it’s actions were justified, to blatantly say that Israel was attacked in 1967, when all sources state that Israel attacked first , is false. The fact that Israel's apologists don't even make this distinction anymore, but just state without any hesitation or qualification, that Israel was attacked, just goes to show how deep the level of indoctrination is that afflicts both sides of the conflict..

Dredging up Hitler and Nazism at the drop of a hat is also completely reactionary and self defeating. Hitler and the Nazi's took their doctrines from armies and ideologies before them. Take Ben Guiron's statement, when he said that if he were a Palestinian, he would not sign any agreement with Israel. It reads like something Joseph Gobbles would say.

What does it tell us - that there is nothing new under the sun.

And personally speaking, the fact that there are terms specific to Jewish maltreatment (like anti-Semitism and Blood Libels) just strikes me as evidence of an entire industry being made out of maintaining a sense of persecution. Can someone explain to me why is it that Jewish people have to use those “signature” terms as opposed to expressions like racism (anti-Semitism) and threats (blood libels) that the rest of humanity use?

Yes I do agree that the collective Arab hostility towards Israel is hypocritical. If they weren’t directing their angst towards Israel, then chances are they might be directing it towards one another. I suspect the hostility has as much to do with the history of being occupied by the British as it does by Israel itself.

Why is Israel scrutinized so much? That’s a very good question. There are undoubtedly many factors, but not least of which is that Israel itself does maintain a very high profile and is hardly subtle when it comes to the international stage. For example, here we have Iran, ten years (even according to Israeli intelligence) away from becoming a nuclear power, and yet we have Israel calling on the US almost every week to do something about it on their behalf. We have Dick Cheney on national TV in the US expressing his “concerns” that Israel may do something about Iraq if the US doesn’t get there first.

Deny it all you will, but throughout Western countries, Israel is questionable the most strongly represented country in diplomatic and financial circles. That's to be applauded, as it is a result of excellence on their part, but nonetheless, it raises Israel's profile.

Yes the Iranian leader is carrying on like some crackpot, but the fact remains that Iran cannot threaten Israel without committing to it’s own destruction. Israel in the other hand, holds all the cards.

I think the main reason Israel draws so much attention is because, unlike any conflict we have seen in decades, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the one with the greatest potential to escalate into something very foreboding. It doesn’t require much of an imagination to consider how the conflict in that region could so quickly flare up into something that involves all of us.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:31:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie said...
"People believe what they want to believe and most people have a deep seated hatred of Jews."

That is just a prime example of the persecution complex that pervades so many people in Jewish society. Excuse my language but it’s such a head fuck. Has it occurred to you Melanie, how destructive and self defeating this is? You probably don't even realize you are propagating it do you?

One thing that I will never forget was experiencing this very phenomenon. Before I even knew what anti-Semitism was, I came across a number of Jewish people I tried to befriend, but often sensed as distrust and paranoia. As I grew to understand it, it really struck me as sad that some Jewish people are brought up to believe the world hates them. This phenomenon is so insidious that for some people, no doubt, it becomes self fulfilling.

There is no denying that WWII did much to reinforce this belief, but there is no denying that it draws negative consequences. If you treat people like criminals, chances are they will eventually act like criminals. Similarly, if you believe people hate you, and behave as such, you will probably drive them to resent you.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:46:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

addamo Blood Libels aren't threats - it is saying that Jews kill Christians to use their blood for passover - that Jews are involved in ritual murder. OK what is the nice generic term for it that applies to all mankind. And the term anti-semitism was not coined by Jews but by anti-semites themselves.

A persecution complex? My father had most of his family gassed in Auschitz including his 10year old sister. My great-grand father was the only one left of a family of 12 after pogroms in Russia, and my mother had to flee Egypt with all the Jews in 1956 - similar experience with Jews in many ME countries. The Islamists today are calling for death to Jews where ever they are. That's reality. Can I see it happening again? Absolutely. Yes, Jews might be paranoid, but maybe a bit of understanding of the paranoia will be helful in understanding Israel and the Jews.

OK I admit that I might have been a bit over the top in my statement about most peoples deep seated hatred but that is what is feels like when Israel is vilified so badly because Jews like me see it as a safe haven. By far - at least 80% - the majority of Israel was made up by refugees fleeing persecution. Russian pogroms, Middle-Eastern countries, Nazi Europe, Russia etc.

Also if you think that Iran is not a threat - read this:

And if you think that Iran thinks about the possiblitiy of its own destruction from attackng Israel - read this:

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:37:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...


Thank you for correcting me about the definition of Blood Libels.

I hope my posts weren't offensive to you. I cannot pretend to understand what experiences like your father's do to people and families. In light of your families history, I do respect your ability to debate the topic without becomming reactionary or outraged.

It's interesting because when my grandmother died (mother's side) I found out that she was of Jewish heritage. She was not a practicing Jew, and I suspect much of it had to do with WWII, though I never got the chance to ask her. Apparently she was very secretive about it. What a twist! If things had bee indifferent I could have been raised as a Jew - which I would have been proud of.

I cannot see how the world will allow the holocaust to happen again to Jews. I certainly would not want to be part of such a world and thankfully, Israel is posed to see it will never repeat itself.

The thing that I do not accept is that criticism of Israel's foreign policy is motivated untilmately by anti-Semitic. After all, what else about Israel is criticized? It's people? It's culture? It's achievements? On the contrary, they are revered and rightly so.

I personally liken the labelling of criticism of Israelis policy as anti-Semitism as that of a child who thinks that a parent’s criticism is a sign of disrespect of lack of love. It is nothing of the kind. Criticism of Israel is not personal. It is no different to criticism of any other country. Anyone who could even consider the destruction of Israel is not worthy of consideration and would certainly not be a person who would be willing to share ideas with other as happens on this list.

The Wapo article you pointed me to really does strike me as overly alarmist. Ahmadinejad was voted overwhelmingly yes, but what Melanie Phillips seems to ignore is that his election was given a massive helping hand by the threats coming from Washington at the time, which united the voters behind him. Ahmadinejad is a loud mouthed rubber stamp in a tight leash.

I will read Melanie Phillip’s article, but perusing it, it looks like her familiarity with weapons systems is a little superficial. Yes, Russia has declared it’s intentions to protect Iran, and I think that if this stands as a deterrent for what could be WW4, then I’m all for it. In fact, Russia’s dialogue with Iran can certainly serve as a moderating factor in this whole tug of war. Anti-aircraft missiles are defensive weapons. Only a contry with violent intent need be concerned abotu them.

If you are interested in an unbiased and factual account of what’s taking place with regard to Iran and it’s nuclear program, I would recommend reading come of Gordon Prather’s articles starting with this one:

The archives are on the right side of the page. Every time you read about some doomsday scenario with respect to Iran, he tends to write an article explaining things in more reality.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:53:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...


Having just read Melanie Phillip's article, I can say that it is filled with inaccuracies and half truths.

There is an assumption on her part that Iran is out of line for wanting to pursue a nuclear power program, including a fuel cycle. This is in fact a right given to any country under the NPT, an agreement that incidently, Israel itself has refused to sign.

The seals that were removed by Iran recently had nothing to do with the NPT but were in fact in put in place to begin with by an unprecedented gesture by Iran to freeze it's nuclear enrichment program. As Melanie rightly pints out, the EU have been hopeless incomming up with any proposal for Iran, so they got tired of waiting.

Ms Phillips seems to think that Russia is being deliberately irresponsible in this matter, forgetting of course that Iran shares it's border and that it is in Russia’s interest to ensure stability in the region. Putin is portrayed as a tyrant in the Western media, but he has been a very proactive leader and done much to stabilize the region. It woudl not be in Russia's interests to provoke any kind of conflict.

China's energy agreements with Iran are due to a number of factors, not least of which has been the overt US presence in the Middle East and it’s control of the world's energy supplies. China's demands need to be met and it is understandable that it is not prepared to put itself at the mercy of the US, who Melanie fails to aknowledge, see China as a threat to their hegemony. China has also signed extensive deals with Venezuela. Ms Phillips surely would not suggest this is the fault of Hugo Chavez.

Russia's development of missile technology is not the product of some arms race so much as one of focusing their defense assets. When the USSR imploded, it left Russia with few resources other than technology. While the US were building multi-billion dollar aircraft carriers and bombers to intimidate the world, the Russian's focused on missile technology - a much cheaper and more effective system.

Ms Phillips predictable references to WWII are pretty shallow. Her overt focus on the holocaust denial by Ahmadinejad suggests that her argument is more emotional than factual. While denial of the holocaust is distasteful in the extreme, it is a far cry from being a declaration of war.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:20:00 pm  
Blogger boredinHK said...

I've almost finished a great little book about oil and the US 's actions from WW 2. It helps fill in the background to many issues-
"Blood and Oil" by Michael Klare.
Any other readers reactions welcome.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:52:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Thanks for the recommendations Bored.

When you're finished with that one, check out "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins. A serious eye opener in regards to the Middle East and Latin America. In fact, he traces his job title back to where it was first created - the overthrow of Mossadegh.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:57:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Well we all know from Ib & Melanie to name a few, about arabs hating Israel. Terrible racist, disgusting stuff..

Now, I want to hear about all the love Israel has for the arabs.

I'm listening.


...I can't hear you...

Anything, anything? Just a little something - you like the taste of pita bread...humus perhaps?

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 3:16:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

I just find it ironic that progressives are more worried about the threat of Australia engaging in a nuclear power program than a bunch of theocractic loons like the Iranians!

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:41:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

we're no worried shab, because long before any chance of a nuclear anything from Iran, we know that those who care will have already bombed it.

Nuclear in Oz however is danger close to home.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:49:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

orang - The Israeli goverment sponsored incitement on par with Nazism which is done by Arab addamo: "While denial of the holocaust is distasteful in the extreme, it is a far cry from being a declaration of war."
And what about Irans proxy war with Israel by funding the terrorist that are at war. Hezbolla and Islamic Jihad.

orang: The Israeli government does not incite hatred. Governments throughout the ME including the PA incite Jew-hatred on par with Nazism. The fact that you totally disregard this says plenty. I'd tell you about how much Israelis do to build bridges and considering the Arabs leaders have done nothing other than vilify it is quite amazing that they bother. But I won't waste my time with you. I know irrational hatred when I see it.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:10:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Ariel, the "Man of Peace" may say "Oh boy. what kind of a neigbourhood is this?"

I can just see it. (Let's fantasize here) 2 Years of absolutely no suicide bombs, rockets..shouting, no trash talk about the holocaust, lot's of "we love Jews" speeches by Hamas and Hizbollah. All the AK47's broken up in front of Reuters cameramen ..

Can you see it?

So then what?

Of course , since they have finally found partners for peace, the settlers will pack up and leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem, leaving it to the Palestinians and everyone will live happily ever after.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:50:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

We should all start also focusing on what will soon be the world's first Islamic nuclear power: France!

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:26:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Oooh what an opportunity for Israel to export it's wall (fence) building technology to the Frogs. Surround all the rag heads - (Les Tete's de Tapis) call it the Dershowitz line.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:54:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...


MUCH more efficient to do what the Frogs do in the South Pacific. Ka-Boom!

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:59:00 pm  
Blogger boredinHK said...

The Land of the Pure has nuclear weapons doesn't it ?
It is an islamic state I think but I'm happy to be corrected.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:03:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Well, there is Pakistan of course, but that's no fun.

Besides, Musharraf's(muslim but not an arab) helping us fight terror.

Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:23:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie said...
"The Israeli goverment sponsored incitement on par with Nazism which is done by Arab addamo:"

What better proof is there that you become what you hate? For what is anti-Semitism but racism? Violet, Lefty and Ibby have all used the term Arab as a derogatory comment in their posts on this forum.

For a while there I actually thought I was engaging in a costructive and cordial debate with an Israeli firster. Perhaps this is just not possible.

Why am I surprised when we have Melanie reading Melanie Phillips and Violet hanging off every word of that hack, Michelle Malkin?

Melanie, so long as you read that fear mongering crap being put out by Mellanie Phillips, then you are going to contiue to spend your life in a perpeptual state of paranoia, looking for anti-Semites under the bed and waiting for what yo belive will be the day when Jews are again rounded up and placed into ghettos. If you want to send your life like that, then so be it.

Last week Melanie Phillips suggested the tripe that Europe was descending into Sharia law. It's so absurb it;s not even worth considering. Perhaps you and her might explain the need for the exteme laws against Hoocaust denial, and why given that the Holocaust's existence is easily backed up my contelss eye witnesses, defendants aren't even able to introduce evidence in court as part of their case.

Thursday, January 12, 2006 12:52:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

fistly addamo you took a sentence of mine that was accidently split by me cutting and pasting part of a sentence to the beginning of my paragraph which sort of got caught mid sentence - addamo was supposed the beginning of the sentence. I thought of reposting and correct myself but I did that the other day and you had a jab at me about it. So the fist sentence you quote was just supposted to say "adddamo:"

Thursday, January 12, 2006 1:17:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

Now the first sentence that you actually quoted was directed at orang. it was supposed to say "The Israeli goverment sponsored incitement on par with Nazism which is done by Arab.." I lost the rest in a cut and paste but because Addamo was the beginning of my post, it some how got stuck in the front of it and it was not at all what I was saying. I know it sounds confusing wasn't what it sounds like.

Thursday, January 12, 2006 1:24:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

My appologies Melanie. Thank you for clearing that up. I don't recall jabbing you abotu correcting yourslef, biut if I did, I was wrong to do so.

As for Melanie Phillips, her credentials are impressive, however, it seem sclear that she preseceives internatinoal affairs through a narrow perspexctive, assuming that the US and Israel are the all good and all knowing standard bearers.

Her views are more driven by ideology than unbiased facts.

Thursday, January 12, 2006 1:27:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...


Who needs to go looking under beds for reasons to be afraid when there are tens of millions of death-cult filthy male muslim pigs out there whose work is on display for the entire world to feast on 24/7?

Thursday, January 12, 2006 1:43:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

If you're in the middle of Tehran dressed in orhtodox Hasidic garb, you might have a reason to look over your shoulder, but a jew in the middle of LA or Melbourne, hardly.

Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:46:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...


How are Melbourne or LA different from New York, Washington, London, Madrid, Jakarta, Bali, Amaan....

Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:42:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

WHat is the incidence of Jewish people being seriosuly threatened in Melbourne or LA different from New York, Washington, London?

I'm not talking about grafitti or pranks here, but actual threats? and compare that to the same experinced by any other minoirity group. Just curious.

Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:59:00 am  

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