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Name: Antony Loewenstein
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Thursday, January 19, 2006

Bombing them into freedom

What price for "liberation"?

"Between 3,000 and 4,000 Iraqis are killed every month, rendering 'ridiculous' US President George W. Bush's estimate of about 30,000 civilian casualties since the start of the war, veteran British journalist Robert Fisk said Wednesday.

"The casualty rate meant up to 48,000 Iraqis a year were dying in the conflict, 'the figure of 30,000 plus is ridiculous', Fisk said, adding that the West did not care about Iraqi deaths."

22 Comments:

Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:30:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Antony,

Do you have any idea about who is behind the Iraqi Body Count group. If they are so off the mark, as it woudl appear, either they ar grossly mistaken or are serving an agenda.

They seem to be the source many consider most cedible.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:53:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Nowhere near enough as far as I am concerned. Surely the Death Cultists can ramp it up a bit?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:58:00 am  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

Of course the West cares about Iraqi deaths. That's why Bush gave such a false low figure.

Neo"lefty"chick: The fact you want more Iraqi deaths proves it is you who is the death cultist. Typical Arab-hater.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:24:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

"progressive" "athiest"

I am no fan of the death cult that is Islam.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:28:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

What is it with you Neo,

Whiole growing up, was your growth stunted at the point where you thoguh it was cool to go out of your way to shock people?

For the love of god women, grow up and get a goddam life.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:30:00 pm  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

Islam is not a death cult. Islam means 'peace'. It comes from the same root as 'shalom'.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:46:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Doesn't matter what the word means, what matters are the actions. By the actions, it appears that Islam is a death cult. Perhaps it is just the arab culture which has not been tamed by Islam.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:39:00 pm  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

At least you are acknowledging that Islam means 'peace'. That is a start.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:43:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

A start to what? Acknowledgement that a vast majority of Arabs have been using doublespeak well before Orwell?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:02:00 pm  
Blogger boredinHK said...

I always find this a weird roundabout ride - body counts ?
The Congo conflict claims 38,000 a month ,
suicide claims about 1 million a year around the world ,
malaria claims about 3 million , mostly children, each year.
So we have an ignored cult , a depressed cult and a an invisible cult.
What IS in the numbers ?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:48:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

Neoleftychick, I think it is time you told us who you are and exposed yourself to some rigorous criticism. You cannot spout crap about "death cults" and "towelheads" from the safety of your anonymous keyboard. Be honest with those you wish to argue with, or else stop saying things that would have serious ramifications were you not protected by your anonymity.

I've suggested for a long time that if you wouldn't say something to a stranger in a pub (for example) then don't fucking say it online. No matter how strongly you feel about the issues discussed here - and you are not the only one who does - surely you are able to converse with civility and courteousness. Humour and stoushing has a place, of course, but your style of slander and argument is neither of those things.

I find it very hard to believe your claims that you "study" these matters. Unless by study, you mean read shit online in your bedroom. The way you speak to others here would not be tolerated in any educational institution. A student of decoupage could tell you that.

Seriously. Grow up, get a civil tongue in your mouth, and engage constructively. Your comments here are not only uninvited but they are often offensive and downright stupid. I, like other readers, visit blogs for a number of reasons. Reading your bullshit is not one of them.

And while I am being cranky (and no doubt "sanctimonious"): Ibrahamav, I would like to meet you at your local one day. I suspect your outspoken views would be a little more subdued in that environment (aka the real world). I also suspect you'd be almost a normal person. How about it?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:35:00 pm  
Blogger Wilbourne said...

Islam does not mean peace. It may be derived from words that suggest the peace that comes from surrender, but alone, it does not mean peace.

And even if it did, what does it matter, and what point does it prove?

Does a woman named Serenity make her manifestly serene?

Let's cut the trite bullshit shall we. Islam is no more peaceful, or otherwise more violent, then other faith-based philosophies.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:47:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

That's a good point well made, Wilbourne.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:53:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

Antony.

The Iraqis are being killed by the insurgents -- who you support.

So, why are you complaining?

Or are you trying to blame the Americans or the Jews for this too?

Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:01:00 pm  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

"The word Islam is itself derived from the word peace (i.e. salaam)."
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/
peace_in_islam/#peace_fighting

"Islam, the word itself means peace and submission. One of the attributes of God is As-Salaam, the peace giver. The path of Islam is called the path of peace."
http://islam-usa.com/Jews.htm

Even the Christian President of the USA has declared: "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/
20010917-11.html

"However, standing up to tyranny is a form of Jihad. As the Prophet said, one of the highest levels of Jihad is to speak a word of truth to a tyrant ruler."
http://islam-usa.com/Jews.htm

This is why Muslims stand up to Zionism, for to them Zionism is a form of tyranny.

However, in truth, Islam is conflicted in regard to the role of war. But then again, so are Christians and Jews.

Muslims give respect to the Torah, which says: “The Lord is a man of war.” (Exodus 15:3)

Similarly, Christianity is conflicted in regard to war. While Jesus blessed the peacemakers, he also said, "I come not to send peace, but a sword."

This (and the evolution debate) is why I am an atheist.

Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:34:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

violet said...

"The Iraqis are being killed by the insurgents -- who you support."

That's right Vilet. The misdirected bombs that have killed dozens of people this past fortnight have just been anomolies right?

Are the US partakign on any of this klilling? Hmmmmmm, Fallujah or Tel Afar ring any bells?

"So, why are you complaining?"

Becasue the goddam war was a distaerous plan that has been conducrted in a disasterous way.

"Or are you trying to blame the Americans or the Jews for this too?"

The Americans started this war, a war of agression,,so they bear most fo the responsibility. The Jews are not to blame. Maybe Israel had a hand in it.

Friday, January 20, 2006 12:18:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

leftvedrunk

Oh GREAT! Now I get male muslim Arabs threatening me with violence over the Internet. What is it with you pigs? Talk about the most backward "people" on earth! The sooner our country is rid of the cancer of simian Islam the better!

Friday, January 20, 2006 10:13:00 pm  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

Huh?

Saturday, January 21, 2006 4:44:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

leftvegdrunk said...

Huh? "

Don't worry, that one has fantasies..

Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:42:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Progressive Atheist said...

"However, in truth, Islam is conflicted in regard to the role of war. But then again, so are Christians and Jews."

Islam isn't - but Muslims certainly are! The problem comes in matters of interpretation - not so much of the Qur'an, but of reality itself. For example, mainstreamers and extremists agree that the Qur'an stipulates that war is only legitimate in cases of (a) self-defence or (b) defence of the oppressed; and agree that innocent people and assets should be left unharmed. The conflict between them arises over what is an act of self-defence. Extremists think that the twin-tower attacks were acts of self-defence and that those who died were not in fact innocent at all - rather, they were 'combatants' working for 'the enemy'. Mainstreamers think that this interpretation of reality is just loopy.

Saturday, January 21, 2006 3:35:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

For the Muslim the world of "peace" is the war of montheistic worship of Allah. The world of "war" is the world of pre-Muhammedan Arabia where the plytheistic camel-jockeys were at war 24/7.

Muhammed was lucky to have a Christian write out a political strategy so he could take over and rule the Arab.

This strategy became known as The Koran. The Christian scribes dictated a "Judaism for Dummies" for the camel-jockeys to understand.

Very effective too!

However its time has come and well gone. From the 17th century onwards the backward and dumb world of Islam has refused to face facts and has festered in a tawdry world of denial.

If it weren't for the oil they'd be in simialr boats to Upper Volta, the Sudan and such.

Poor dears.

Sunday, January 22, 2006 7:57:00 pm  

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