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Name: Antony Loewenstein
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Friday, January 06, 2006

For Israel, first and foremost

Gal Beckerman, The Forward, January 6:

"Acknowledging the Jewishness of neoconservatism has always triggered the red, flashing lights of antisemitism, especially since the start of the Iraq War (with extra points if it's Pat Buchanan doing the acknowledging). But there is some truth to the suspicion. If there is an intellectual movement in America to whose invention Jews can lay sole claim, neoconservatism is it. It's a thought one imagines most American Jews, overwhelmingly liberal, will find horrifying. And yet it is a fact that as a political philosophy, neoconservatism was born among the children of Jewish immigrants and is now largely the intellectual domain of those immigrants' grandchildren. Understanding what might be Jewish about this movement (or "persuasion" as its godfather, Irving Kristol, prefers it be called) should be possible without being accused of conspiracy theorizing about secret cabals pulling strings for Israel."

74 Comments:

Blogger Melanie said...

That about 85% of Jews vote Democrats in the US and that in most areas of life Jews are over represented and that Jews are extemely varied in their thoughts, there will obviously be Jews in almost all areas.

Why is Antony bringing up the Jewsish invovlment in neo-cons when neo-cons are a minority of Jews. Jews tend to get involved in what they beleive in even though mainly left-leaning organisations.
Antony's post is quite incredible but not surprising. From reading his site of late I think he believes anti-semitism is a Zionist tool to give credibility to the Zionist state. He tries to deny its significance and if it does exist it is always the fault of the Jews. And a Jew himself.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:19:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

The forefront of most intelectual movements, and the 'neocon'is just one such, is usually Jewish.

Why? Not a subject up for debate at the moment. However, it does allow those ashamed of their heritage an opportunity to attack almost anything dealing with the intelect and have a Jew to punch.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:35:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"The forefront of most intelectual movements...is usually Jewish.

Why? Not a subject up for debate at the moment."


No, no. Please go on Ibby. I would loooooove to hear your racial theories on intelligence.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:01:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

"The forefront of most intelectual movements, and the 'neocon'is just one such, is usually Jewish."

I beleive Jews tend to do well because of a cultural emphasis on being creative but also tend to get very involved in certain movements - human rights/feminist etc because of a sincere desire to prevent the likelihood of injsutices being done to people that Jews themselves had suffered.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:14:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

ibrahamav: no idea what you meant by "Not a subject up for debate at the moment" but I must say it sounds a little bit racists.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:20:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You make a good point Melanie,

Excellence among the Jewish community has been earne and achieved through true creativity. Their resutls speak for themselves.

As for the neocons, yes they represent a small number of individuals, but as we are constattly reminded with the influence of ruling elites, it only takes a handful of people in the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it) positions to effect great change or outcomes.

Many of the neocons themselves were democrats art some point, but like all parasites, they jump from one host to another when they see an opportunity.

I think it is a mistake to confuse the Jewsish community as a whole, with the exploits of these idelogical extremists.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:20:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Sounds racist? Good point? The subject is not up for debate on this forum as Loewenstein has not made it a topic.

Piss poor use of the term 'parasite', by the way.

A better use of the word might be as a definition of the entire Catholic church from the toilet cleaner to the Pope.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:44:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Since when has a topic stopped you from going off on tangets Inbraham? I'm sure we'd all be interested in hearing you elborate and shre your thoughts.

The use of parasites to describe the neocons is compeltely appropriate. They believe in the noble lie and think nothing of switching allegiances to further their cause.

Speakign of tangests, what has this topic got to do with the Catholic church, or is this just a diversion?

Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:05:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

It had to do with your poor use of the word "parasite". You still use it poorly.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:17:00 am  
Blogger asdfsdafsda said...

ibratard, do us all a favour and go kvetch somewhere else you schmock.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:41:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

At least I write in english.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:14:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"The subject is not up for debate on this forum as Loewenstein has not made it a topic."

1. As Addamo_01 asks, "Since when has a topic stopped you from going off on tangets Inbraham?" You spend MOST of your time going off topic. What's stopping you now?

2. YOU brought it up, ya dill!

3. If it wasn't a topic of interest before, it certainly is now.

So Ibby, if you're not gonna share the love, at least share the wisdom. Please - enlighten us, O star of the north!

Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:59:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

To insert some masculinity and sense into this conversation, you should all trot on over to the Officers Club and take a look at some brave people -- who unilke you all -- are actually doing something to help the people of Iraq.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:58:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Violet - did you find this site via Michell Malkin too?
I guess the Pentagon didn't close down all the weblogs from Iraq, kept the "good" ones.

Do we look like girly men?

I love this one,
"I, too, got here via Michell Malkin, and would like to echo the above sentiments, Just call me a dittohead...

I'd like to add that I have participated in many impromptu debates re the war, both in Iraq and Afganistan. I truly believe the conflicts are vital to the future of America. By way of analogy, we are fighting the 'Spanish Civil War', testing our hardware, refining our strategys and tactics, and most importantly, gaining vital veteran status in preparation for a coming conflict with the Chicoms, and their allies in NKorea, Iran, and prehaps a backslid Russia. Hopefully, your efforts will remove Iraq from the list of enemies we will have to face."

Beautiful.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:19:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

violet said...
"trot on over to the Officers Club and take a look at some brave people

"Airmen and Soldiers take a moment to pray for each other's safety before heading out for another day of convoy duty in Iraq."

Well, it's good to see at elast some people haven't forgotten Georgie-boy's "Crusade" comment.

A low blow, to be sure, but at least I didn't call them anti-Semites. :P

Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:49:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

edward

What was "stupid" about Bush's "crusade" comment? What the Towlies must start doing is stop whingeing and blaming others. WE will decide when to use which ever words we bloody well like when WE so decide.

A "crusade" is not owned by the Towlies. If they don't like our language and can't face their own historical mistakes and losses, then it is just tough titties for them.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:20:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

neoleftychick said...
"What was "stupid" about Bush's "crusade" comment?"

Better to direct that question to the Bushter's advisors who promptly shut him down after he said it.

The only problem I had with it is that there was absolutely no mention of the excellent work done by the Spanish Inquisition. Typical Bush. Always hogging the limelight.

"WE will decide when to use which ever words we bloody well like when WE so decide."

Yes, and apparently WE'LL decide when to stop using those words when they start to look really, really, really, really .... really





dumb.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:50:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:20:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

t's interesting how Antony uses military terms to describe his own behaviour when he wouldn't even make it through basic training in the ADF. But since he's using soldier speak and gone AWOL I'll take advantage of his absence and post the type of stuff real men read. Rather than the anti-war, anti- Zionist, anti-American diet you are all accustomed to -- I'll post some stuff to stretch your flower power Lefty ideologies. And when Antony comes back from his pretend military deployment with his plastic Steyr F88, you can enlighten him with your knowledge of the real world.

Here are some pics of lovely little Palestinian children

And, Muslim groups in Germany are outraged that they have to answer questions about why Allah told them they can beat their wives.

Alas, the Danes are caving in to Muslim pressure and agreeing they should never, ever have published a cartoon of Mohhamed.

The world just doesn't get it yet. Muslims have a separate standard of human rights. They get to mutilate their daughters' genitals, have four wives and honour murder their daughters. And if we dare object -- well nice gentle people like you will stick up for them.

Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:20:59 PM
Delete

Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:27:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

It certainly is a quandry. How do we stop these horrible practices yet allow freedom of religion?

Who are we to draw the line?

Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:42:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

violet, they don't want to see it because it will go against their goals of Palestine becoming a country encompassing Israel where all people of all religions will live together with lots of group hugs.
Also most people that think like this don't even understand the concept of Dhimmitude. Honestly some of the most vocal anti-Israel people aren't even familiar with the word. Well if Hamas get elected they have already vowed to bring in the Dhimmi tax.

Since you are linking to articles here is a fascinating thing I have just been reading a bit about on various links to African Jews. The Tutsis of Rwanda and Burundi were originally Jews and only in the last part of the 1800's were forced by the Christian missionaries to convert:
http://www.kulanu.org/tutsi/jews-africa.html

Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:32:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Interesting Violet - esp. the sorts of comments on the Boker tov, Boulder! site

Now I understand the sort of milieu Ibby stumbles home from, late at night, drunk with self-confidence and hate in equal measure. If that's the air one breathes all day, then of course he's never going to understand the meaning of a humane attitude.

"They are once more demonstrating that they are not yet ready to join the civilized community of nations." - Daniel in Brookline

Yep - they deserve more occupation until they have learned, at the end of a canon, how to be civilised. This is the white man's burden. But what's the point when we also know this counterfactual?...

"If one day they wake up and find the planet emptied of everyone but palestinians, no doubt they would turn their violence on each other." - Citizen Grim

That's right: they're congenitally uncivilised. Israel is doing both them and the world a favour with it's occupation.

But wait - correction:

"They are slaughtering each other in Gaza at this moment. That is what they do best!" - Stuart Kaufman

...so it turns out Israel is doing the world a favour by keeping them caged, but not doing them any favours after all. But like it matters because they're...

"Soulless bastards." - MamaGeph

Not only irredeemable in this life, but also in the next. Treating them like human beings would be politically and theologically absurd in the extreme. And it is about theology (For Dummies, at least):

"who prodded Bush to pressure Israel to relinquish part of its Patrimony to create yet another Arab Country[?]"- HBendor.

That's right - at fundamentalist ground-zero, it all comes down to the plans of the Great Real Estate Developer In The Sky...and as the Boker tov, Boulder! line says, "Only by the hand of G-d does the Jewish nation exist and maintain its sanity. --But we can help." How? Chaim Ben-Mordecai has the answer:

"If only Meir Kahane had been in charge..there would have been no Palestinians celebrating..no Palestinians...period."

What was that about Palestinians being uncivilised again?

Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:20:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Melanie said...
"they don't want to see it because it will go against their goals of Palestine becoming a country encompassing Israel"

Oh pish-posh, Mel. Do you think that is Our goal? Why do you credit Us with so little ambition? We don't want the Palestinians to rule over Israel like kings. We want the Palestinians to rule the whole WORLD! And then the Moon. When the technology is ready, We will then launch Our grand mission to take control of the entire solar system. Nothing will stop Us in Our glorious quest.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:26:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Edward,

Don’t you just love the way Violet and Melanie completely invent these charges out of thin air. I wonder if they have on-line conferences or MSN sessions where they brainstorm these "creative" concepts.

Forget the irritating fact that no one has stated these aims in any posts on this forum, you ladies know what we really mean by reading between the lines right? And no matter how many times we agree that the subjugation and abuse of women in Muslim societies is reprehensible, what we are really trying to say is that we approve, isn’t that right ladies?

Dmn it Eddie, how did they de-encrypt our subliminal code?

I have to say I particularly love this one "But since he's using soldier speak and gone AWOL".

Soldier speak indeed. Kinda reminds me of a guy who's daddy got him into the champagne club during the Vietnam war but still weren't AWOL, became an alcoholic, has a drink driving record that was disappeared, snorted coke at Camp David, failed in every business venture he ever attempted, attacked all political opponents who were real Vietnam vets (including one who is confined to a wheel chair) and still has the good sense to parade around in a flight suit (adorned with an extra large cod piece) and calls himself commander in chief.

That’s no even mentioning his manly VP, who got at least 4 deferments from Vietnam because he had other priorities.

And what of this charge that in spite of being vehemently opposed to the war, the best way to prove our manliness would be to sing up for the military and go and fight in that very war. Maybe I too can take a line from the Cheney book of manhood and say that I too have other priorities – say like the fact that I think the Iraq war is the most fucked up idea and enterprise since Vietnam.

Maybe Violet should awaken from her self imposed coma and consider direction her energies on how to prevent soldiers dying (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/politics/06cnd-armor.html) and vent her outrage at the criminal incompetence of those who ran this war

But nothing should come as a surprise, seeing as these recommendations are coming from someone who can not only stomach the farcical and fictitious ramblings of Michelle Malkin, but then post having so little shame to actually cite her as a source.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 4:23:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

By the way, if this estimate becomes realise dan d1-2 trillion dollars is indeed blown on this war, it would have to go down as nto only the worst stratetic blunder in US hisoptyr, but the most expensive too.

Money well spent right Violet? Any guess as to the millions of lives this money could have actualyl benefitted or saved?

Nobel Laureate Joseph E. Stiglitz and Harvard budget expert Linda Bilmes plan to present this week a paper estimating the cost of the Iraq War at between $1-2 trillion. This is far higher than earlier estimates of $100-200 billion.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/5/11510/30624

Sunday, January 08, 2006 4:51:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Addamo_01 said...
"Dmn it Eddie, how did they de-encrypt our subliminal code?"

They have special magical powers from Fantasy Island.

Anyway, while A.L. is away, let's all have a SING-SONG.

I can't WAIT to read Ibby's response to this ... assuming he survives the kiniptions.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 6:40:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Give him time Eddie,

It's the weekend, so he's probably busy making a fresh batch of puppy juice.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:11:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Edward Mariyani-Squire said...
InterestingViolet - esp. the sorts of comments on the Boker tov, Boulder! site

"Now I understand"


No, you don't.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:24:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Hey Ibby. Did you like the song? Good, isn't it?

Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:44:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Eddie,

Don;t tkae it personally, but I suspect Ibby's more into beats that he can goose step to.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:21:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

melanie

The fact is that Jewish people are leaders in literature, finance, science, jurisprudence, economics, entertainment, and politics all across the globe.

They are an astonishingly successful and brilliant people whose achievements soar above all other peoples.

How many Muslims have recieved Nobel Prizes? Oh that's right, one. Arafat's Nobel for Terrorism. In academia, Muslims barely rate a mention outside "Edward Said Studies." A bit ironic given that Said was an Anglican Egyptian who learnt to speak Arabic in the U.S.!

But the Muslims have given the world the "honour" killers, stonings, suicide bomber, magic carpets, and jihad.

Thanks!

Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:36:00 am  
Blogger violet said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:36:00 am  
Blogger violet said...

Edward & addamo

Let me ask you a serious question. What do you propose to do with over 6 milllion people living in Israel and over 4 million Palestinian refugees in 59 UNWRA run camps?

Do you suppose they all live in a country smaller than Tasmania? Do you have a grand plan?

Just prior to 1948, the United Nations voted 33 to 13 votes for a two state solution, the Palestinians rejected this and immediately declared war on the Jews. And since that day the Jews have been forced to fight for the right to live in their own land. In 1948 there were a little over half a million Palestinians who could have easily shared their land with Jewish people. But instead, they decided to go to war and have been at war ever since. They have openly stated they do not want part of Israel but all of Israel. They have openly stated they do not want peace with Israel.

Look at what the Palestinians have done with Gaza -- this was their chance to make something for themselves. And don't forget the welfare dependency Palestinians now suffer. They live on donations from host countries to the tune of $440 million per year. Over 70% of Palestinian refugees were not even born in Palestine, but in refugee camps in host countries.

What is your grand plan for peace? And since you are not an anti semite, how do you propose we save the Jewish people?

Thanks for the link Melanie, I'll read it with interest.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:42:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Hey Lefty,

Happy new year to you darling.

"But the Muslims have given the world the "honour" killers, stonings, suicide bomber, magic carpets, and jihad."

You see the workd with such clarity it's astounding. What are your views abtou African Americans and what they've given the world?

Would the list read something like, rap/hip-hop, crack cocaine addiction, gangland violence, OJ Simpson, world record times over 100 meters?

Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:51:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

violet

It is a bit tragic watching these pro-Terrorist chuckleheads invoking the authority of the United Nations, given that the Arabs refused to acknowledge even Israel's right to exist, let alone GA Chapter 4 Resolutions 181 and 194.

They rejected international law of Chapter 7 Resolutions 242 and 338. By the time a lone Arab state even deigned to acknowledge the validity and legitimacy of 242 and Israel's right to exist it was 1978.

It was not until the 1990s, that the "Palestinians" acknowledged 242's legitimacy.

Lately, I have heard Palestinian militants, including HAMAS insisting on the primacy of GA Resoltion 194. Too bad guys, that that Resolution had been superseded nearly 4 decades ago.

Be careful of Muslims bearing UN Resolutions and "international law." ;)

Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:56:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Violet,
“Do you suppose they all live in a country smaller than Tasmania? Do you have a grand plan?”

I doubt space is the issue. Nearly 20 million people live I an area the size of New York.

“Just prior to 1948, the United Nations voted 33 to 13 votes for a two state solution, the Palestinians rejected this and immediately declared war on the Jews. And since that day the Jews have been forced to fight for the right to live in their own land.”

Violet, if you are gong to make references to the UN, you have to decide whether you regard the UN as legitimate or not. Yo can’t have it both ways and just cite the findings of the UN that favour Israel.

“In 1948 there were a little over half a million Palestinians who could have easily shared their land with Jewish people. But instead, they decided to go to war and have been at war ever since. They have openly stated they do not want part of Israel but all of Israel. They have openly stated they do not want peace with Israel.”

I seem to remember the first so-called Jewish "freedom fighter" was Ben Gurion who by all historical records available was a "terrorist" who raided and cleared Palestinian communities using machine guns and machetes and took over their land. Subsequent PMs of Israel earned their position actually as "terrorists" like David Ben Gurion.

Hardly the choice way to start a relationship was it? Why do you think the conflict and war have now become a genocidal for well over 50 years now?
You seem to have forgotten about the comments from Dov Weisglass that Sharon’s plan was to put the roadmap into formaldehyde.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1433

Do you honestly believe Sharon was committed to a peaceful settlement or just using the Gaza withdrawal as a distraction while he grabbed more land form the west Bank?

The Jews are not blameless. They had Palestinians' blood thick in their hands. If you’re serious about this debate, you migh start by addressing the disparity about the Jews being "freedom fighters" and the PLO being terrorists.

“Look at what the Palestinians have done with Gaza -- this was their chance to make something for themselves.”

Oh yeah. Take away their water, throw up erroneous road blocks and check point that prevent them being able to get anywhere, bulldoze 10,000 of their homes. You’re right, those Palestinians had paradise handed to them on a platter and they blew it.

“And don't forget the welfare dependency Palestinians now suffer. They live on donations from host countries to the tune of $440 million per year. Over 70% of Palestinian refugees were not even born in Palestine, but in refugee camps in host countries.”

Well seeing as their mean to earn a living a by an large greatly demised, by the above arrangements, their orchards either destroyed or stolen from them, it’s pretty amazing that the Palestinians are able to make do with such little foreign aid.

Israel get 7 times that amount, not to mention the 2-3 Billion a year is loans and subsidies. This does not include the significant “donations” from other groups overseas. If their economy is in such a boom, perhaps you should propose they give the money back?

While you keep harping on about the $440 million per year received by the Palestinians, we should also be reminded that every one of the families who was displaced from their Gaza homes was handsomely compensated by the US to the tune of $300-400 thousand dollars. All in all, more than double what the Palestinians get in aid.

“What is your grand plan for peace? And since you are not an anti semite, how do you propose we save the Jewish people?”

Save the Jewish people from what? Are the Jewish people are facing destruction? If you’re talking about security, that’s a different matter. If they want security they might contemplate the cessation of stealing more land from the Palestinians and restoring the territorial boundaries to the pre 1967 condition.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:15:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addamo

For somebody who uses the UN's authority so selectively, you have a nerve criticising others!

Here is a quick tutorial:

1. The General Assembly is NOT a law-making body; it can only issue Chapter 4 Resolutions, which are about as legally significant as a government's "White Papers."

2. The Security Council's Chapter 7 Resolutions are the only ones that count as "law." Both 242 and 338 are such examples.

3. The ICJ is only a mediation body for those states who choose to recognise its "legal authority."

4. UN Human Rights Convention "resolutions" are nice pipe-dreams that do not have "legal" status.

I hope this helps.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:25:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

addamo, you said: "no matter how many times we agree that the subjugation and abuse of women in Muslim societies is reprehensible, what we are really trying to say is that we approve, isn’t that right ladies? "

No, you don't approve but you turn a blind eye. You said in a previous post the other day that you are concerned that the anti-war movement is distracting from the main goals because and becoming too you certain about these sort of things. Remember you commented saying something like.. sure a women gets raped in Fallujah and as awful as it is it is nothing like the carnage the US troops are doing. I can go and find the exact quote but it was the same sentiment.

You turn a blind eye to the sick culture because you believe these people are fighting your enemies..which happen to be us. It is hard to see the moral depravity in your thinking when your moral compass is in a tail spin.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:32:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

I should have previewed. I meant to say... You said in a previous post the other day that you are concerned that the anti-war movement is distracting from their main goals and becoming too you concerned about these sort of things.
..
It is hard for you to see the moral depravity of your thinking when your own moral compass is in a tail spin.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:37:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Lefty,

Nerve you say? Weren't you the one who said "who gives a crap about the UN"?

Since when has Israel recognised legal authorities that don't pander to it's needs? Even when it comes to it's main benefactor, Sharon nevr had a problem telling them Twhere to go.

How many Chapter 7 Resolutions has Israel ignored or abided by?

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:39:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

oops did it again - I meant
....becoming too concerned
..but you get the point.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:40:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addamo

Israel has abided by the 1947 UN partition, the 1949 Resolutions, 242 and 338. These are the most important in this conflict.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:43:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addam

You people are just irrational. One minute you are squealing that Israel is nothing but a puppet client state, then you are chiding Israel for exerting its independence over its so-called puppet-master.

Then to compound your irrationality your flaunt your low-level debating skills in this last post. In what way is Ariel Sharon's diplomatic objections to the actions of the US Secretary of State a breach of a UN Chapter 7 Resolution? Unless you are arguing that you think the most senior source of international law is Madeleine Albright!

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:47:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

addamo, the EU and these resolutions are a joke. The left originally were strong supporters of Israel until the Soviet union allied itself with the Arabl world - for oil not for any decent principal - and of course the rest of the lefty dogmatic group thinker followed and beleive that when the Arabs keep bringing up these ridiculous resolutions about Israel, they are doing it on some high moral principal. No one in the UN even believes that crap.
Also Israel will never do anything that will threaten its existence which most of those resolutions do.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:47:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

“I should have previewed. I meant to say... You said in a previous post the other day that you are concerned that the anti-war movement is distracting from their main goals and becoming too you concerned about these sort of things.”

I’m sorry Melanie, I still don’t follow your grammar. I make typos all the time so I won't comment. Can you rephrase this.

If I have any problems with the anti war movement, it is the way it is usually characterized by war apologists.

“You turn a blind eye to the sick culture because you believe these people are fighting your enemies..which happen to be us. It is hard to see the moral depravity in your thinking when your moral compass is in a tail spin.”

Melanie, it sounds like your cutting and pasting an argument without even bothering to read what you are writing.

I don’t take sides, identify enemies or buy into the us vs them crap that seems so vital to your ideology and sense of identity. Are you suggesting that in spite of the mass murder taking place, the only event of any significance to you is whether a woman is raped or not?

Are you telling me that you are not disgusted by the 56 year old Iraqi woman being shot in her own home, because it did not involve rape?

You and Vilet seem detremined to frame my arguments and those of Eddie in such a way to suggest we are not rally concerened abotu Palestinians, somuch as anxiosu to see the demise of Israel. Well, I'm inclued to think that your collective focus on abuse of women in the Muslinm community is driven by a racist desire to paint all muslims as sub human.

Forget moral compasses my dear, you don't even have one.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:53:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ladies,

Would love to stay and chat. I'm enjoying this debate but my wife is demanding I leave my laptop, so I bid you good day.

BTW. Lefty. I have never suggested Israel was a puppet to anyone. Nor have a read any post to that effect.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:56:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

Firstly the woman that is raped is then often killed afterwards for dishonouring her family. The 56 year old women shot is tragic but what was the reason for her death. Was it intentional? If it was intentional then it was despicable?

I don't focus just on people being raped, I find the insurgents that are intentionally blowing up innocent civilians by the hundreds each week in Iraq as one of the most despicabe acts in the world today. And the anti-war movement either support them or turn a blind-eye.

I'm not painting Muslims as sub-human just the culture in many parts of the Muslim world as barbaric. Muslims need to address these issues rather than crying victim all the time because most of their problems are self-inflicted.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:11:00 am  
Blogger violet said...

melanie

Muslims are the misunderstood victims of the bullying West. That's why they do things like this:


Man Shot 5 Times in Head for Refusing to Convert to Islam

Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:22:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

and there are just no words for this one:

http: Islamic clerics authorise sex with infants

Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:54:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

Aaaah, the old stalwart http://www.frontpagemag.com.

Thank you violet, print it out , great for wiping your arse with.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:34:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

orang

No argument? No debate? No data? No evidence? Just the usual strawman arguments? Tedious dullard.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:55:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Whatever it takes to get rid of the loose pieces of addamo.

As for a moral compass, he wouldn't know what one looks like.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:57:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

The 56 year old woman who was shot (4 times in the chest a point blank by a US soldier, did so because she spat in his face when he ignored her request for time to cover herself before entering her home. Not very lady like sure, but clearly a case of a Westerner killing a defenseless person.

“I find the insurgents that are intentionally blowing up innocent civilians by the hundreds each week in Iraq as one of the most despicable acts in the world today. “

And what do you think of US soldiers in Fallujah shooting anything that moves? 30-50 thousand people remained in the town prior to the assault (eben though we were told that all ahad left), an assault that we were told was intended to rid the town of Al Zarqawi, and yet who it was reported had already left the city.

The US forces turned of power and water to the town. Anyone on life support would have dies instantly.

Firstly, the US has used Zarqawi as an excuse every time they have launched and offensive, or blamed him for any major acts of violence. If you believe in that fairy tale, you might want to consider the criminal negligence of the Bush administration for turning down no fewer than 3 requests by the US military to take out Zarqawi before the invasion, because they wanted to use his presence in Kurdinstan (the part of Iraq outside of Saddam’s reach, yet directly beneath the no fly zones patrolled by the US), as a way to strengthen the case to invade Iraq.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

Now tell me, given the mayhem that has been attributed to Zarqawi and his mob, is this not an act of criminal negligence on the part of the Bush administration. Zarqawiis a killer. Everyone knew he was a killer and the Bushies decided they wanted to unleash him so as to make they case look better. How incredibly cynical and sinister is that?

When the US forces kill civilians, as they did when the bombed a house of 14 innocent Iraqi’s this week, we are told they are collateral damage. When insurgents kill Iraqi’s, it is considered an act of terror. Don’t you just love the hypocrisy and double standards?

"And the anti-war movement either support them or turn a blind-eye."

The anti-war movement consist of a lot of people. For example, you and Violet think that Iraq war was a lovely idea while Neolefty doesn’t. Does that mean that Neo and you cannot possibly agree on the matter of Israel/Palestine? Of course not.

Cna we start arguing like adults or we gong to carry on like children in a playground?

I'm not painting Muslims as sub-human just the culture in many parts of the Muslim world as barbaric. Muslims need to address these issues rather than crying victim all the time because most of their problems are self-inflicted.

This is true. There are self inflicted problems and there are those inflicted by external forces. No one in turning a blind eye to the problems that face women in Iraq, but to follow Violet’s lead, and focus on the plight of women in Muslim countries, while completely ignoring the disastrous war in Iraq is a sign of insanity oor ideological blindness.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 4:08:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

"the EU and these resolutions are a joke.”

A joke because they don’t suit Israel? Hey, the US flouts resolutions too. Most countries do at some stage. No big deal right? But 64 of them?

"The left originally were strong supporters of Israel until the Soviet union allied itself with the Arabl world - for oil not for any decent principal - and of course the rest of the lefty dogmatic group thinker followed and beleive that when the Arabs keep bringing up these ridiculous resolutions about Israel, they are doing it on some high moral principal. No one in the UN even believes that crap."

Melanie, sometime you sound lucid and other times you just sound like you a writing to hear the sound of your own voice. This is an utter load of rubbish. You have no idea what the left or the right is here. Israel has support from all sides of the debate, but support does not mean shutting up or closing your eyes when Israel is in inflicting human rights abuses does it?

“Also Israel will never do anything that will threaten its existence which most of those resolutions do.”

The trouble with this statement is that Israel can decide that every resolution threatens it’s existence or security, juts like the way Bush uses 911 and the war on terror to justify anything he does, legal or otherwise.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 4:39:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Neo,

"No argument? No debate? No data? No evidence? Just the usual strawman arguments? Tedious dullard."

Apparently, the issue is a little high brow for you. Vilet quoting frontpagemag.com/ is about as credible as quoting a post from Stormfront.

I'm sure Vilet would have been the first to link to this little gem had it happened to day.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3589/us-iraq-lie.html

Sunday, January 08, 2006 4:44:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

orang

the link I posted was from MEMRI -- a very reliable source, Frontpage simply reprinted it.. Your ignorance is astounding. You dismiss the truth as if it were tripe simply because it doesn't suit your political agenda. You have no integrity as a thinker, a scholar or even a moral person. So the sexual abuse of small baby girls doesn't concern you one little bit? Do you agree with it?

One must assume from your refusal to discuss the topic that you condone it. Shame on you. You are not worthy of intelligent debate.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:28:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

addamo, "A joke because they don’t suit Israel? Hey, the US flouts resolutions too. Most countries do at some stage. No big deal right? But 64 of them?"
No, a joke because the bigest Human Rights violators in the world continuously bring up the same predictable resolutions against Israel. A joke because Syria can head the Security Council even while sponsoring terrorism, and Lybia can chair the Human Rights Commision yet Israel who has more resolutions brought up against it than any other country, isn't allowed to even sit on the security council.
With all the Muslim countries plus the rest of the world that has proven to be easily bought by oil and other construction contracts (France, Russia, Germany etc) the UN's credibility doens't hold much weight.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 6:24:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

neoleftychick said...
"The fact is that Jewish people are leaders in literature, finance, science, jurisprudence, economics, entertainment, and politics all across the globe."

Woah, woah, woah. Back up there Madam Francis Galton. You're not saying Jews rule the world, are you?

Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:04:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

neoleftychick said...
1. The fact is that Jewish people
2. ...How many Muslims have recieved Nobel Prizes

Um. In the first case you SEEM to be referring to (a very, very outdated) notion of "race". The second case is a belief system. Apples and oranges, my dear, apples and oranges.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:07:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

violet said...
"Look at what the Palestinians have done with Gaza -- this was their chance to make something for themselves."

I think the East Timorese would be classifying you a bio-hazard.

I can see The Violet Encyclical now: "Look what the East Tmorese have done with East Timor. Nothing. A total waste. Anyone who can't build an advanced industrial society in 20 minutes after they have been raped and pillaged for 30 years doesn't deserve to the land on which they were born - hell, they don't even deserve to LIVE. Kill 'em all, I say, and let some professionals - yes, that's right, some white Europeans - take it. It is their birthright, after all, as ordained by G?d Himself!"

Yep. All the peoples of the Third World - that is, the majority of humanity - would reeeeeeally love to see you vision of beauty instituted, I'm sure.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:17:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

Oh Eddy

You appear to have such a selective knowledge of the true situation in Israel. Do you believe all the Pali propaganda out there?

The fact is -- as neoleftychick pointed out -- Jews have contributed an incredible amount to the world, despite being persecuted and tormented most of their existence. And why don't you answer the question and direct us to a few Muslim Nobel Prize winners?

The fact is, the Islamic Middle East is a backward, twisted, primitive society that can't even treat women as equal citizens, let alone contribute anything substantial to the world. As Mark Steyn recently said, every conflict in the world seems to begin with someone by the name of Mohhamed.

Thank god people like you are a tiny minority. We'd all be living in third world shitholes if you had your way. The fact that you consider your loyalty to the Left more important than acknowledging the abuse of Middle Eastern women is shameful and ignorant.

Why can't you make a statement about Islamic sexual violence against women? Is it because you believe men should be able to rape, honour kill and mutilate the genitals of women yourself? It seems to me that you do. Let me hear you condemn it Eddy. Go on.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:52:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

so violet, are muslim women Ok by you?

Sunday, January 08, 2006 9:08:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Violet,

You're wasting your time. Eddie doesn't care about the Palestinians, violence against women, or anything else you've discussed.

He has a single agenda.

And some moron comparing Frontpage to Stormfront is someone pushing a lot of addamo.

Sunday, January 08, 2006 10:38:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Violet,

I am curious what the obsession you and lefty have with Nobel prizes. Let me see, didn't Arafat get one of those?

Oooooooooops!! When should we expect to see one for Mr Sharon for the field of excellent in Butchering and bulldozing.

Monday, January 09, 2006 3:30:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No you're not. You're not curious at all.

Monday, January 09, 2006 9:06:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Is that what your tarrot cards are telling you Ibraham?

Monday, January 09, 2006 10:02:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

violet said...
"orang
........ So the sexual abuse of small baby girls doesn't concern you one little bit? Do you agree with it?

One must assume from your refusal to discuss the topic that you condone it. Shame on you. You are not worthy of intelligent debate. "

I'm waiting for the really good stuff from you enlightened ones. I'm sure something will come up-Muslim man eating the entrails of the 5 female babies he had imprisoned as sex slaves....for instance - something REALLY fascinating. All this run of the mill rape stuff,...boring.

Monday, January 09, 2006 12:07:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

What I find slightly macabre is Violet's apparent acceptance of attrocities commited by Westerners in Iraq, on the grounds that she is convinced all such acts will be thoroughly investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice.

Somehow the fantasy that that the crimes will be policed makes the crimes themselves a non issue.

It;s little wonder that this selective blind spot enables one to focus on the traversties commited by Muslim men agains women in their society, but remain blind to all the other evils talking place around them.

Maybe Michelle Malkin wrote a self help book on ho to achieve this state of Zen.

Monday, January 09, 2006 2:08:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

TRhe enlightened ones are leaving orang alone. I'm sure he knows why.

As for our inhabitant of eddie's ass, what else needs to be said?

Monday, January 09, 2006 3:08:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addamo

You are correct. The Towelheads are the priud owners of one Nobel Prize: For terrorism!

Islam's most significant contribution to humanity? The suicide bomber.

The essense of Islam? Plagiarised Judaism (the slow-learners track, that is).

Monday, January 09, 2006 6:33:00 pm  
Blogger orang said...

neoleftychick said...
"...The Towelheads are the priud owners of one Nobel Prize: For terrorism!

Islam's most significant contribution to humanity? The suicide bomber.

The essense of Islam? Plagiarised Judaism (the slow-learners track, that is)."

You're not kidding! The dumb fuks are killing themselves as well - talk about slow learners! You're supposed to plant the bomb , then run!
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/King_David.html

Monday, January 09, 2006 7:36:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Yes, the Britsih were warned that there was a bomb and they decided to ignore the warning.

The organizers were wrong to bomb the building, the British were idiots to stay in the building.
A very simian thing to do.

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:21:00 am  
Blogger orang said...

I'm going to write to the simian anti-defamation league about you.

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 6:23:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Do so. They will ignore you as they have in the past.

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:25:00 am  

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