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Name: Antony Loewenstein
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Wednesday, January 25, 2006

Living by delusions

Israel's acting PM Ehud Olmert offers platitudes about a Palestinian state:

"The choice between allowing Jews to live in all parts of the land of Israel and living in a state with a Jewish majority mandates giving up parts of the Land of Israel. We cannot continue to control parts of the territories where most of the Palestinians live.

"Israel will keep security zones, main settlement blocs, and places important to the Jewish people, first of all, Jerusalem, united under Israeli control. There can be no Jewish state without Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty."

And there will not be a Palestinian state under these conditions. The soon-to-be formed new Palestinian government will see to that.

Meanwhile, the Arab Association for Human Rights has released a report, "Beyond the Walls":

"In the State of Israel, the Palestinian Arab minority and the Jewish majority live largely in separate areas. With the exception of 'mixed cities', in which a significant Palestinian minority lives alongside a clear Jewish majority, most Palestinians and Jews live in their own communities, in a territorial separation of sorts.

"Apart from this territorial separation, recent years have seen the establishment of separation walls and fences between Arab and Jewish communities within the State of Israel, and, in other cases, between Arab and Jewish neighbourhoods within the same city. This physical separation has been initiated by the Israeli establishment and is meant to prevent physical or even eye contact between the two populations. The reasons offered as to why these walls have been established seem rather foreign to the realities on the ground.

"This report aims to provide a review of these walls and fences as they manifest themselves in three areas within Israel, and to discuss the human rights violations they entail."

Today's comments by Olmert suggest that Israel has no intention of eradicating discrimination against non-Jews. By saying that he wants to begin, "setting the permanent borders of the state of Israel to ensure a Jewish majority", he would ideally like no Palestinians or Arabs at all, but alas, international pressure would not allow such a move. Instead, expect further resistance to negotiate with the Palestinians - especially if Hamas "terrorists" are in government - and a growing realisation among Palestinians that a one-state solution may be the only long-term solution. Israelis may continue fencing themselves in, but living in a highly militarised penitentiary will eventually become unbearable.

33 Comments:

Blogger neoleftychick said...

How on earth does the laughably titled "Arab Association for Human Rights" have time to worry about Israel for pity's sake? Israel is one of the world's top 5 multicultural nations, with one of the world's most respected Supreme Courts and legal systems. The first place on earth that Arab women got the right to vgote, and the only place in the middle east and the entire islamic world where gays can flock to march in gay Pride festivals.

e thinks this phoney group should look inside their own houses first. ;)

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 4:52:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

when you say multi cultural nations what do you mean?

I know youve got arabs and jews but im not aware of israel having many other cultures in it.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:00:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

moody

Israel is made up of Arabs (20%), Asians (12%), Africans (15%), Europeans/Russains/Americans (30%) and "mixed" (20%).

Israel has two official languages -Hebrew and Arab.

All religions are tolerated, and all have equal rights. A Muslim even sits on Israel's Supreme Court.

Now compare that to any of the 100 or so dumps in Israel's vicinity. ;) Start with Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia...

I hope this helps. ;)

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:12:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

According to the CIA worldfactbook
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

the ethnicity of israel is made up of the following
Ethnic groups:
Definition Field Listing
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Dont see how that makes israel such a multi cultural society. Especially not the worlds top 5.

Also you claim that "All religions are tolerated, and all have equal rights"

Thats clearly bullshit. Do you want me to list the things that jews are able to do that arabs cant?

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:29:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

moodymann

There is no disputing that Arabs inside of Israel proper have a great many opportunities that Arabs in their own countries don't. A recent survey found these Arabs do not want to move, but love their life there. And a very high percentage expressed gratitude for the welfare system in Israel.

Let me nform you of one opportunity that Arabs have inside Israel that Jews don't:

They have the opportunity to go to university when they complete high school. Israeli kids have to go into the Army and do 3 years compulsory military service, which puts them behind the Arabs when they get out. Arabs kids are not required to do military service.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:05:00 pm  
Blogger smiths said...

i'm coining a loewenstein blog term, 'the brights'

now i know that it is already used elsewhere with a totally different meaning
but for me, here, it refers to the group whose 'brilliance' mike jericho wanted to siphon off plus a few extras, joined by their racist and ignorant views, so here they are,

mike himself, abner, neoleftychick, violet, melanie, ibrahamav and shabadoo

this link is for you guys

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4632578.stm

buy a shirt of a'rebel' group and some of the proceeds go to 'rebel' fighters

thought it would be right up your alley

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:40:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

moodyman

Excuse me? Can you please explain how you can conclude from the data that Israel is NOT on of the top 5 multicultural societies on earth? And why have you avoided the implication of this fact. "Now compare that to any of the 100 or so dumps in Israel's vicinity. ;) Start with Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia..."

Also, if you are going to play with the grown-ups here, you'd do well to know that "Arab" is not a "religion."

And who said bigotry is not borne of ignorance!?

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:15:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

moodyman, you've named almost every continent there. Do you know what a continent is? Well let me try to simplify this. The continents you named are made up of many many countries. Amazingly you didn't name Russia where a huge hunk also come from. What was smiths saying about 'brights'?

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:19:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:40:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

sorry, is being jewish an ethnicity, a religion a culture or all of the above?

I dont see how you can claim israel is multicultural when 80% of the population is jewish and the other 20% is Arab/muslim

Ok so many jews come from different parts of the world, where do the palestenians come from?

neoleftychick, let me rephrase my question

Do you want me to list the things that jews are able to do that muslims as citizens of Israel cant?

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:42:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

moodymann

What you seem to be saying is that you do not what "culture" means. Or "Jewish" or "Arab" or "Muslim."

Proving once again that bigotry is borne of ignorance.

Go back to school little boy.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:45:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

why cant you just answer my questions?

Too hard are they?

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:12:00 pm  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

Israel is not a tolerant society. The AshkeNAZI Jews treat the Sephardic Jews like second-class citizens.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:16:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

moodyman: "Ok so many jews come from different parts of the world, where do the palestenians come from?"
Excellent point. Most Palestinians came from various Middle Eastern counries in the early part of the late 1800's and early 1900's because of the promise of work. I can't remember off the top of my head which countries in particular. I will go and look it up.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:31:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

progressive atheist -- I assume your knowledge is based on first-hand experience? And, of course, you've been to Israel and observed this? Or, is this more propaganda?

And are you implying that European Jews are NAZIs by capitalising the second half of the word?

Of course, you wouldn't be calling Jews names would you?

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:42:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

Here you go moodyman:
http://www.mythsandfacts.org/media/user/documents/Palestinians.pdf

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:51:00 pm  
Blogger Moodymann said...

Melanie,

there is no point arguing with you.

From your last statement it is clear that you have been clearly brainwashed into believing all the nonsense you post.

You are not open to reason or logic when discussing a topic.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:52:00 pm  
Blogger violet said...

moodyman

Jewishness is not a race. There are Indian, Ethiopian and Sth African Jews all who share a common culture.

Palestinians also come from all over the Arab states. They were not the first inhabitants of Israel-- the Canaanites were. In fact, they have rarely in history had control of the country.The Ottoman Empire (now Turkey) invaded Palestine in 1517 and ruled until 1918.

It was during this time that Jews fled persecution in Europe and joined fellow Jews in Palestine where their ancestors have lived since the 14th century BC. The Arabs did a deal with the British in 1918, and together they overthrew the Ottoman Empire and the country fell under British mandate.

However, the British had also done a deal with France and Russia (Sykes-Picot agreement in 1916) to divide up the region between them, and with the Jews, (the Balfour Declaration of 1917) who wanted a national homeland. These conflicting promises caused the Brits endless grief until 1947, when they declared their mandate unworkable and handed the problem over to the United Nations.

The Palestinians refused to accept Jewish statehood in 1947, and declared war. And despite outnumbering the Jews by 1,300, 000 to 600,000 the Arabs suffered defeat. The state of Israel was declared in 1948 and five Arab armies joined the Palestinians in an effort to purge the Jews into the sea.

Today UNWRA runs the Palestinian refugee industry. They classify any Arab or their descendants who were in Palestine at the time the new state was created as a "Palestinian". Many, many so-called Palestinians are not so, but were there working or visiting in 1948. However, now they live on UNWRA provided welfare.

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:55:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

moodyman

Are you now prepared to retract your nonsense and concede the multicultural reality of Israel?

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:55:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Violet

Indeed most of the non-Jews who lived in Palestine in 1947 were recent arrivals from the wider Arab world who flocked to Palestine to take advantage of the economic prosperity generated by the British presence and Jewish businesses and kibuttzim. This was especially important as most of the Arab peasants were finding life difficult during the 1930s depression.

There is not really any such thing as "Palestinian" people. In fact, prior to partition it was primarily Jews who were referred to as "Palestinian." The Arabs were referred to as "Syrian" unless they had moved to the Palestinian state of Transjordan. A Palestinian state which, by the way, banned Jews!

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:00:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Tell me Neo,

Is it true that most Jewish ancestry can be traced back to Khazars and not Israeli's?

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jews.htm
http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/jewsnotrace.htm

Not asking to be a smart arse, just curious as to what your (or Violet's or Melanie's) take is on it.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:35:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:59:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Not at all my paranoid friend.

I came across this once and never followed it up in a historical context (no time).

Seeing as Neo riased the issue as to ancestory, and that the Jews were in limbo for so long, I thought I could be enlightened by someone who was likely to know about it.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:03:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:22:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You seem to knwo all the neo-nazi key words and tricky phrases, and indeed the contents of their web sites. Does that mean you must therefore be a member?

Thursday, January 26, 2006 9:38:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

Violet,
Jewishness is basically a religion which became identifiable as a culture during the centuries of diaspora.

People who gave up their Jewish religion, or who did not practice it, like the ancestors on both sides of my family, assimilated and were no longer Jewish.

People who call themselves Jews are people who at some level accept the relgion ... like non-practising Catholics they are non-practising Jews. Catholics become catholics when christened as babies and that's it forever, whether you practise the religion or not.

Jews, real Jews, must have a Jewish mother to be considered Jewish although the more liberal aspects of the religion will recognise converts and anyone with a Jewish parent.

The Jewish as culture will of course die out because in the modern age Jews are not threatened within the countries in which they live and the really dedicated ones can go to Israel.

Judaism as a religion will continue and will be practised, as other religions are, regardless of one's nationality or culture.

Interestingly, if you want to go back through your Nobel Prize list you will find many 'winners' were not strictly Jews, as in born of a Jewish mother, and many had dual parentage. The question then is if one has an Irish Catholic parent and a Jewish American parent which is the prevailing influence.

Answer, neither and both. Talking about achievements based on race is well, racist.

There are lots of clever Jews and lots of dumb ones, probably more dumb ones now than there were or Israel would not be in such a mess.

There are lots of clever people in all cultures and nations and there doesn't exist on this planet pure strains of anything.

Even Aborigines, if you go back far enough, came from somewhere else and evolved through mixing and marrying.

It is good to honour the strains of culture and race which flow through all of us but regarding one as more important than another is foolish.

My ancestors, and these are only recentish ones I know about, were English, German, Scottish, French, Danish, Greek and Moroccan or maybe Aboriginal but we're not sure... the religions they practised and dropped were Jewish, Anglican, Baptist, Hugeunot and Catholic but I am Australian and a follower of no religion.

And it's a pretty fine place to be. I am enormously grateful to all of my ancestors for being so flexible as to assimilate and for having a pragmatic approach to religion.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:27:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Well it looks like Hamas and Fatah will have almost equal seats, with neither being able to form a government on its own. Good lord, political chaos, homocide bombers, still welfare-dependent.

Somehow I can't see the independent state of "Palestine" in my lifetime. Time to hand them over to Syria, Egypt, and Jordan for baby-sitting. We've done all we can.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:24:00 am  
Blogger RHRoss said...

neo

the independent state of Palestine is not going to come because of Palestinian elections, it is going to come because Israel will realise it either gets a viable Palestinian state as a neighbour or it gets one State, with all the Palestinians in it and a Jewish minority.

What would be your tip on which it will be?

Thursday, January 26, 2006 12:47:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:36:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I see loewaddamo still coddles antisemites who use the khazar approach.

You can remove it all you'd like. It's going to keep coming back.

Any jerk-off who posts crap about the majority of Jews being Khazars is basically posting antisemitic nonsense in the best tradition of Zudel, Duke Loewaddamo, and Irving.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:08:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

At least rhr realizes that the creation of a palestinian state rests with those who control the land.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:09:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

So you do believe that posession is 9 tenths of the law - and yet you denied it.

What a liar.

Friday, January 27, 2006 1:35:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I believe you are full of addamo. I've admitted to that many times.

Israel has control of the land. Ownership is in dispute and by UN resolution should be settle by negotiation.

But one side believes suicide bombers are their best negotiating tool. Thusly, the other side shall most likely make additional unilateral moves. They will fix and seal the borders and allow the genocidal dreaming suicide bomber side to sink or swim on their own. Based on gaza and the elections, it appears they are begging to sink.

Friday, January 27, 2006 4:49:00 am  

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