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Thursday, January 26, 2006

Slapping down the West

Journalist and author Dilip Hiro on the rise of political Islam in the Middle East:

"This [Palestinian elections] is but the latest manifestation of the rise of political Islam in the electoral politics of the Middle East, a development that - despite the Bush administration's endless promotion of democratic reform in the region - is causing deep worry among top policy makers in Washington.

"Last year began with Islamist candidates winning most of the seats in the first very limited municipal polls in Saudi Arabia and ended with the Iraqi religious parties - both Shiite and Sunni - performing handsomely in the December parliamentary elections. The official Iraqi results, announced on January 21, showed the Shiite United Iraqi Alliance winning almost 80% of the seats that should go to the majority Shiite community. Likewise the Islamic Iraq Party won 80% of the places to which the Sunni minority is entitled.

"In between these polls, in a general election held last summer, Hizbollah emerged as the preeminent representative of Lebanese Shiites, the country's largest sectarian group (which is grossly underrepresented in parliament). And in the first election for the legislative assembly not flagrantly rigged by Hosni Mubarak's regime in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood registered a nearly 60% success rate by winning 88 out of the 150 seats it contested. The Brotherhood certainly could have won many more, but its leadership deliberately decided to contest only a minority of seats in order not to provoke the regime of Egypt's pro-American president and so create a situation in which he might be likely to strike out indiscriminately against the opposition."

Sooner or later, the US and its Western allies will have to learn to deal with groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. True democracy means accepting the will of the people, without interference or obstruction.

The West should be worried.

76 Comments:

Blogger neoleftychick said...

Worried? Yeah right! As the Islamic world hurtles towards the 4th world who gives a damn?

Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:15:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

That's if true Democracy would last with Hamas already vowing to bring in 'al-jeziya', the poll tax for non-muslims - under Sharia law if they won.
http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=44202&eng=y
These groups will go along with the Democratic system as long as it takes to get into power and then they will impose Sharia.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:18:00 pm  
Blogger John Sobieski said...

Bush and his gang foolishly believed that a 'fair vote' would usher in more rational leadership who believe in equality for the individual and religious communities. That is simply false and has now been proven. I see the State Dept is now trying to whitewash Hamas to make them more acceptable. I feel great to pay taxes knowing a few hundred million will help finance terrorists in the Palestinian terriroties attack the infidels. It's the way it should be. The infidels pay the jizya and plead for mercy.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:27:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

Well after all, Hamas is now paying a Britsh PR company hundreds of thousands of dollars to show the nice side of the genocidal death cult.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:42:00 pm  
Blogger psydoc said...

Antony, perhaps you have heard of Neville Chamberlain? He had similar views to you.

As a Jew, could you deal/negotiate with Nazis or Hitler? Any rational response would be no. Why is Hamas different, they have expressed exactly the same aims?

Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:53:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Like it or not guys, Hammas have support. If they are chosen to represnt their constituents, then all of you who parrto abtou democracy need to respect that. The Bush adminstratino are considered war criminals and internationl terrorists. Woudl you suggest that the governmet is dellegitmised by that view?

Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:59:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

addamo

Equally the US, Europe, Australia, etc. have any right to remove all our aid and to break diplomatic ties.

Deal?

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:02:00 pm  
Blogger psydoc said...

adamo, you have selectively ignored salient points. It is official Hamas policy to kill non combatants and to eradicate the Jewish population. Exactly how do you propose to negotiate with that?

Adamo, you have a terrible problem with non-sequiter arugments. Irrespective of your view of America, we are talking about a Jewish state negotiating with a group that seeks its complete destruction. This has nothing to do with America. Your argument is an empty distraction. You again demonstrate that you are an Islamist stooge.

What do you compromise with someone whose raisen detre is your eradication?

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:09:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

How are they different from Nazis? From Hamas's Charter:
'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:26:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

Mind you there are a few of Antony's supporters here that would agree with Hamas on those issues.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:27:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:30:00 pm  
Blogger Melanie said...

neoleftychick, as you just mentioned on a previous post, you used to be uninformed and then when you learned some facts you change your political views. That's quite similar to my case. There is a weatlth of information out there so I just like to point it out to people. I know most people don't want to hear but I do think that Islam is something that people really need to open their eyes to.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:40:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:43:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 3:48:00 pm  
Blogger psydoc said...

"True democracy" according to Ant means dealing with Nazis. The paradox is that despite Hamas participating in an election, they have no desire for a democracy. If the will of the people is to enforce genocide, it is utterly pathetic as Ant claims that you should not interfere with it.

Its official, Ant is an idiot.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 5:37:00 pm  
Blogger Wilbourne said...

Hamas has won the elections and will constitute the next government in the PA. While their charter remains unchanged, the absolute destruction of Israel, and their force of arms have not been renounced.

The next Hamas sponsored suicide bombing in Tel Aviv is thus a hostile act by a hostile government who's intentions are apparent and declared and only people like Antony have the audacity not to take them at their word. Westerners who look down at them as if they better understand what is in their Arab hearts. Edward Said would be ashamed.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 6:58:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

Yeah, "Sooner or later, the US and its Western allies will have to learn to deal with groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas" sounds so much like "Hitler is a man we can do business with". Sheesh.

And people wonder why JWH wants to bring back the teaching of proper history!

Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:18:00 pm  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

Antony -

You won!!

Congratulations. You're an inspiration.

http://www.collectiveapathy.com/node/150

Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:28:00 pm  
Blogger psydoc said...

Yes, an inspiration. Just think of how far Ant could have gone with good judgement and talent? Must have been all those clicks from the League of Rights.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:48:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Given the HAMAS victory, Israel now has the perfect justification to end this conflict once and for all. Fill up the tanks, launch those choppeers and let's start moving some dole-bludging Arab ass.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:17:00 pm  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

Neoleftychick,

Why are you ignoring my posts about Jesus? I know you've read them.

Wassa matta? You chicken?

Buck-buck-buckaaar.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:52:00 pm  
Blogger psydoc said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:53:00 pm  
Blogger boredinHK said...

AL,
as David Heidelberg said
" Congratulations "

Best mainstream media blog.
Does this mean a move to more conciliatory positions , less confrontation and who knows , in future a new business as a conflict resolution counsellor ?
Regardless , well done.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 9:05:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:22:00 pm  
Blogger Progressive Atheist said...

1. You a chicken -- for not responding to my Jesus comments.

2. You are a liar -- for claiming to be an atheist.

3. You have dishonoured yourself for calling for the death of a peace activist.

Shame, shame, shame.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:33:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:35:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:46:00 pm  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:50:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

neoleftychick said...

"Given the HAMAS victory, Israel now has the perfect justification to end this conflict once and for all. Fill up the tanks, launch those choppeers and let's start moving some dole-bludging Arab ass."

You forgot the bit about using the situation a an exmaple to demand mre money from the US.

Friday, January 27, 2006 12:29:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

This is very interesting. By electing Hamas, it can be postulated that the will of the palestinian people is Genocide.

While this is nothing new, and what is taught in palestinian schools and preached in palestinian mosques is this same Genocide, it can now be confirmed by popular vote of the Palestinian people.

Of course, there are antisemites who will try to lull you into a false sense of security, just as they did in Germany, that this is not really the goal, that civilized people could never do that.

But we know better.

Friday, January 27, 2006 12:34:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

That' like saying that by electing Sharon, the wil of the Israeli people was mass murder.

You can;t have it both ways Ibraham

Friday, January 27, 2006 1:32:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Melanie said...
"That's if true Democracy would last with Hamas already vowing to bring in 'al-jeziya', the poll tax for non-muslims - under Sharia law if they won."

Some trivia so that you can talk intelligently about this on other forums.

The poll-tax (spelt 'jizyah') on non-Muslims is hardly a big deal. It was introduced as tax to fund the Muslim armed defence of non-Muslims. It is in fact the most basic and primary tax of all societies. It is one of the taxes the father of economics, Adam Smith deemed absolutely necessary.

In the 7th and 8th centuries, it was imposed on a community as a whole (based on a head-count) and took the form of an in-kind payment. It was of two parts: (a) consumption goods (e.g. blankets), and (b) military goods (e.g. swords). The (b)-category of jizyah was really a compulsory loan - it was to be paid back after some set period of time.

In the centuries that followed, jizyah became an individual wealth-tax: a flat tax rate of about 5% of wealth per year to be paid in cash. To be eligible to pay the tax, the following conditions have to hold: the person must be of voting age; not be mentally disturbed; not be a prisoner; be a male; not be a Muslim; have wealth above the minimum wealth-threshold. No tax is levied otherwise.

In exchange, the Muslim administration is required to: protect non-Muslims and their property; protect non-Muslim places of worship and ensure their internal religious laws are upheld; administer Islamic law where internal religious law does not apply.

Meanwhile, Muslims are obligated to pay a welfare tax ('zakat'). The eligibility conditions are the same as for jizyah (except that the payee is a Muslim), and the tax rates are different: e.g., 2.5% on cash and deposits; 2.5-3.3% on animal farming wealth; 5-10% on horticultural wealth; 20% on mining-related wealth.

Friday, January 27, 2006 2:06:00 am  
Blogger Mike Jericho said...

Nothing good can come of this. Antony, these people want to recreate the holocaust. That isn't a soundbyte. It's a stone cold fact.

This goes far beyond partisanship and the historical finger pointing. You should be, personally, really concerned by this development.

Friday, January 27, 2006 2:06:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

By electing Sharon, the people of israel stated that they wanted a leader that would more actively defend their lives and shield them from a people whose stated policy is Genocide.

It is not both ways. On one hand, there is the Israeli desire to save lives, on the other is the Palestinian Islamic desire for genocide.

Only someone full of addamo could consider them similar.

Friday, January 27, 2006 2:09:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

That's just you hiding behind blind moral exceptionalism Ibraham, other wise you would not have to suffix your arguments with your obligatory insults.

Mike Jericho said...

"Nothing good can come of this. Antony, these people want to recreate the holocaust. That isn't a soundbyte. It's a stone cold fact."

That's alarminst rubbish. The Nazi's were able to instigate the holocaust because they were overwhelmingly more powerful than their vitims. This is by no means the case, nor is it in any way forseeable.

Friday, January 27, 2006 2:30:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

edward:"(spelt 'jizyah')"
Firstly trying to correct spelling on a non english word is quite funny. Do people still do that?

The poll-tax on non-Muslims is hardly a big deal. It was introduced as tax to fund the Muslim armed defence of non-Muslims."

OK, edward is a dhimmi, next...

Friday, January 27, 2006 2:31:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

edward - The poll-tax : "In exchange, the Muslim administration is required to: protect non-Muslims and their property;"
That is what is commonly known as protection money and commonly paid to mafia types...only lefties would apologise for it and even think it to be oh, quite wonderful.

Friday, January 27, 2006 2:36:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

When someone is full of addamo, you should tell them. It is good for their soul to purge it.

Face it _01, I did you a favor.

That the palestinians cannot, at this time, fulfill their dreams of genocide does not mean we can sit back and laugh.

It is often an antisemitic ploy for some fool to tell us not to worry because our sworn enemy doesn't have the means to carry out his desires and fantasies.

The Nazi's didn't have the means in 1923 either.

Friday, January 27, 2006 2:43:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Mike Jericho said...
"Nothing good can come of this. Antony, these people want to recreate the holocaust. That isn't a soundbyte."

Would everyone here get a grip.

Two points.

[1] HAMAS is a violent organisation borne out of 30 years of seemingly eternal military occupation, yearly dispossession, and daily oppression. No big surprises there. We always see such groups emerge when a population lives for an extended period under occupation. And yet we also know that organisations which say that are deeply committed to violent resistance, once they find themselves in a position where they are no longer occupied and oppressed, are seemingly miraculously transformed into sane political entities. Take the terrorist wing of the ANC in South Africa; take the terrorist organisation of Fretlin in East Timor; take the terrorist organisation of the IRA in Ireland: all deeply committed to violent struggle to obliterate their oppressors; all making wild and shocking statements at one time or another; and all becoming legitimate political leaders - heroes even! - once the oppression they were fighting ended. Why is it impossible - leaving aside moronically racist and bigoted pseudo-explanations* - for HAMAS to end up going down this road like the terrorists before them?
-----------------------------
*One of my great-uncles used to say EXACTLY the same sorts of things about "the blacks" and the ANC as neoleftychick & co. say about "the Arabs". It's like being sucked into a time-warp.
-----------------------------

[2] Let's assume for the sake of argument that HAMAS is hell-bent on genocide, and despite what I said in [1], there is no chance they will ever change under any circumstances (for whatever genetic or cultural reasons you want). Who cares whether HAMAS gets elected or not? Why does Israel care one jot? We are NOT talking about the Nazis here. The Nazi Party had control of one of the most advanced military and industrial infrastructures in the world at the time. They brought this down on a relatively defenceless and largely unsuspecting Jewish population. This was systematic, efficient, production-line mass murder. To think that the election of HAMAS is in any way a harbinger of THAT is to endulge in a deranged fantasy; it is to be gripped by an insane delusion. The Israeli Jews today do NOT face genocide in a giant industrial killing factory backed by an overwhelming military force. Rather, it is Israel which is now the "overwhelming military force". It can - and does (a testimony to its incredible power) - occupy whatever land it wants, kill whomever it wants, build settlements, roads and bridges where-ever it wants, and build huge, sniper-lined Walls and checkpoints to keep out 'undesirables' where-ever it wants. This is not a defenceless population hanging by a thread, surviving only by the pleasure of a great European power. Israel is now the great European power in the region.* So let's not pretend 'the end of the world is nigh' if HAMAS does form the 'government' in the occupied territories. More likely than not, it will simply be 'business as usual.'
-----------------------------
*No, I'm not saying Israel is Nazi Germany. That's idiotic. I'm saying Israel is now the most powerful European country in the region.
-----------------------------

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:03:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

"The Nazi's didn't have the means in 1923 either."

I never said the Israeli's should let their guard down, but the histeraical assertion put forward by Zionist nutters, that a hilocaust is somehow innevitable, is totally baseless.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:06:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Melanie said...
"Firstly trying to correct spelling on a non english word is quite funny. Do people still do that?"

Yes. For the first vowel, you used an 'E' when it sould have been an 'I'. Obviously that changes the sound of the world substantially (e.g. cap/cup). You also added an 'I' where there is no such sound at all. (Putting an 'H' at the end is desirable, but not necessary, so the fact that you left it off is okay.)

OK, edward is a dhimmi, next...

Okay, you're an ignorant bigot who wants to stay that way. Fine. Next.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:12:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Melanie said...
"That is what is commonly known as protection money and commonly paid to mafia types"

Yeah, I was waiting for some ignorant drongo to say something like that. Under the law it is to defend people from others - maurauding bandits, other tribes, etc. Do you want quotes from some original sources? I suspect not.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:15:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"The Nazi's didn't have the means in 1923 either."

Huh? Are you saying an industrialised Germany didn't EXIST in 1923? Don't you read ANY ACTUAL history?

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:17:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

edward, Maybe the means to get into the postition you need to be in to forfill an agenda.
Why the indignation at the notion?.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:30:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

"Why the indignation at the notion?"

How about complete absence of evidence, or absence of measn to get to a position in order to do so?

BTW. What's the fuss about Hamas spending a few hunderd thousand man campaigning, when that is a spit in teh ocean compared to th esums the israeli's get to play with?

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:36:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

edward" HAMAS is a violent organisation borne out of 30 years of seemingly eternal military occupation, yearly dispossession, and daily oppression. No big surprises there. We always see such groups emerge when a population lives for an extended period under occupation"

OK links please. This is a total bit of made up crap.
Gee, you must have dug through the thousands of manuscripts to come up with data from countries with populations suffering 'long term occupation' that also happen to have problems with Hamas type groups. Sure.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:39:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

Hamas got it's start after 1967 when the Israelis occupied the West Bank and Gaza. All of a sudden an Islamist movement, that had been suppressed, especially by Egypts President Nasser, began to flourish during the 1970's and 80's, with the encouragment of the Israeli military authorities.

Israel has a lot to answer for that Hamas remianed viable.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:41:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Poor eddie, knows so much yet understands so little.

In 1923, the Nazi party was not in power. It did not have the means to commence the Holocaust.

The analogy is the Palestinian people, being arabs, have the same basic tools that the nazi party had in 1923.

I see your little friend is barking and sniffing up there again.

Many in the Zundel ranks bark the same refrain.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:44:00 am  
Blogger Melanie said...

"What's the fuss about Hamas spending a few hunderd thousand man campaigning, when that is a spit in teh ocean compared to th esums the israeli's get to play with"
Did you read the posts about Hamas. Their ideology is very similar to Nazi ideology. Rampant with Jewish conspiracy theories and dertermination to exerminate Jews. Sound similar?

Well anyway, is the difference addammo, any money the Israeli government spends (and they have hopeless PR) comes from Israeli taxpayers rather than the US, EU, UN Iran, Syria and various Islamist charities.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:46:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

Israel has hopeless PR? That's debatable. For many decades, they were dong really well. It's just that all PR has a limited shelf life.

Look at the Bush adminstration. The best PR machine in history and yet it too is falling apart under the strain of age.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:49:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ibrahamav said...

"In 1923, the Nazi party was not in power. It did not have the means to commence the Holocaust."

So you therefore admit you were stupid to raise this it.

"The analogy is the Palestinian people, being arabs, have the same basic tools that the nazi party had in 1923. "

Can you be more specific? This is utterly meaningless.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:51:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Melanie,

Wee it not for Israel, Hamas would never have risen to their current status.

Hammas got it's start after 1967, when the Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. All of a sudden, an Silamist movement that had been supressed, especially by Nasser flourished during the 70's and 80's.

This was mde possible by the encouragement of the Israeli Militray authorities.

I bet Israel regrets that move now. When will the US and Israel learn that meddling in the affairs of other countries ultimately comes back to bite you in the arse?

Friday, January 27, 2006 4:40:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I'm admitting that eddie's analogy is ridiculous. I'm also admitting that you are full of addamo.

That you can't understand what is right in front of you is your problem.

Or is it a problem? Perhaps it's just a technique you learned from your mentor.

Friday, January 27, 2006 4:44:00 am  
Blogger Mike Jericho said...

"To think that the election of HAMAS is in any way a harbinger of THAT is to endulge in a deranged fantasy; it is to be gripped by an insane delusion. The Israeli Jews today do NOT face genocide in a giant industrial killing factory backed by an overwhelming military force. Rather, it is Israel which is now the "overwhelming military force". It can - and does (a testimony to its incredible power) - occupy whatever land it wants, kill whomever it wants, build settlements, roads and bridges where-ever it wants, and build huge, sniper-lined Walls and checkpoints to keep out 'undesirables' where-ever it wants."

Really, Edward? And when has it exercized that tremendous, ruthless muscle? Jenin, perhaps? No, that was a fraud. Oops.

Ah, yes, I recall. When it is invaded on all sides by massive Arab nations hellbent on its annihilation.

I note you put a great deal of emphasis upon the technological advantage the Israelis enjoy over their enemies. This is undoubtedly true.

True, also, was the advantage the Americans enjoyed over the North Vietnamese.

Do you recall the Tet Offensive, Edward?

The Americans repelled that massive assault, but at great cost. The North Vietnamese, unlike Hamas, were targeting soldiers only. The footsoldiers of the Hamas regime will not, Edward. They will do what Hamas has always done. It will target undefended civilian populaces.

They don't need to achieve parity with Israel, you see. Not in numbers, weapons or technology.

They only need the will to act, to destroy as many Israelis as possible. Not soldiers, but civilians. And they will. How many Israelis will then flee for America and other, safer lands?

Meanwhile, you will continue to froth about Israelis who "can go anywhere and kill anyone they like", but, funnily enough, don't.

Friday, January 27, 2006 4:47:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Mike, other than the arab army bit, fine post.

The Arab armies were a 5 headed fish, waiting to be bagged. Each ruler did not want to give up command thus it was in chaos.

Not to take anything away from the fighting Jews who had so much more to lose than the Arabs had to win.

And the Arabs had talked themselves into not comitting all the troops they could have.

Friday, January 27, 2006 4:58:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"I'm admitting that eddie's analogy is ridiculous."

Read my message again. You didn't get it. I'm NOT saying that the official HAMAS ideology doesn't have similarities to fascistic ones. I think it does. My point is that there IS NO analogy in terms of a genuine threat to Israel or the Jewish people as a whole from HAMAS. And this relates to your utterly bizarre statement:

"The analogy is the Palestinian people, being arabs, have the same basic tools that the nazi party had in 1923."

The "basic tools" the Nazis had in 1923 were words - but words don't count for much UNLESS you can actually turn them into material actions. The reason the Nazis were able to do that was because they were able to rise to the top of a PRE-EXISTING military-industrial complex almost unmatched at that time. Where is HAMAS's military-industrial complex? The military-industrial complex is on the OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL, Ibby.

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:05:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

They are as genuine a threat as the nazi party was in 1923. In ten short years, they began to have the means to put their genocidal plans in place.

The palestinians have the entire Arab world, and Iran, at their disposal if it means killing Jews. Even the Nazi's didn't have that much until much later.

And Iran seems to have quite the military-industrial complex that it seems more than willing to allow Hamas to share in. If it means killing Jews.

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:17:00 am  
Blogger Mike Jericho said...

Edward, if you wouldn't mind responding, I have a question for you.

Do you believe that Hamas, with the support of the Palestinian people and that infrastructure the PA (and Hamas itself) boasts, it cannot pose any significant threat to Israel?

Also, I am curious. Do you personally advocate the destruction of Israel?

No distractions, please. Just answer the question.

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:21:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

"Also, I am curious. Do you personally advocate the destruction of Israel?"

OMG. How boring and repetitive! Tell me Mr Jericho. Is that the first question you are told to ask a Goyim during a debate at Zionist school?

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:27:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

insidently, the Tet Offensive, you may recall, did not take place in the US. It took place on foreign soil. As we are seeing in Iraq, occupations are tough business and usually fail.

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:28:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

So much addamo, but so easy to sweep away.

Why is _01 answering for eddie? can't eddie deal with the same type baiting question your mentor feeds the two of you?

Something wrong with tit for tat? Or are only antisemites allowed to play that game?

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:44:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Not answering for Eddie at all. yoiu seem to be having trouble reading properly these days.

I was actualy asking a question about a pretty absurd comparison.

But I understand that this is all a big complicated for you.

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:45:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

As I said, a bit complicated for you. Or isn't kissing Mr Jericho's his ass enough for you anymore? Playing pet fascist?

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:51:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No, you were answering for eddie. Kissing his ass isn't enough for you anymore? Playing pet antisemite?

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:51:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

No, you were answering for Mr Jericho. Kissing his ass isn't enough for you anymore? Playing pet fascist?

Friday, January 27, 2006 5:55:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You were 7 seconds too early.

Most antisemites are. You have to be a lot faster when you try to keep up with the big boys.

Go back to the minors as you're clearly out of your league.

Friday, January 27, 2006 6:30:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Boys Ibraham? And there I was, assuming you'd made it though puberty. That certainly explains your juveline mind and obsessions with people's body parts.

Friday, January 27, 2006 7:02:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Again, your assumption,, like most of your knowledge, is based on guesses and addamo.

Friday, January 27, 2006 7:55:00 am  
Blogger Rich Bowden said...

The election of Hamas - an organization bent on the destruction of the Jewish state - is indeed disturbing for all peace minded individuals both in the Middle East and around the world.

However I can't help thinking the best vote-winner for the triumphant Islamist party was in fact the policies of the US and Israeli governments towards the Palestinian people. Just as the US ham-fisted approach in Iraq has driven more and more people into the arms of the extremist insurgents, the ability of Hamas to portray themselves to the Palestinian people as "resistors to the Isrealis" has obviously struck a chord with the electorate.

Friday, January 27, 2006 7:55:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Because you think it doesn't make it true. Your approach is very simplistic and will work well with the younger groups of rabble rousers.

But the veterans know superficiality when they see it.

But your 'mob' approach is realistic as there aren't enough veterans to make a difference.

Friday, January 27, 2006 7:57:00 am  
Blogger leftvegdrunk said...

Nothing surprising here.

Friday, January 27, 2006 9:13:00 am  
Blogger Stev said...

It's all well and good to talk about how terrible Hamas is. And yes, it is terrible. But what are Israel's practical options here? Hamas exists. Just as the Palestinian people who voted it into majority exist. The way I see it, there are basically three options:

1. Seek the destruction of Hamas and the people who voted it into power
2. Seek to change the views of Hamas and the people who voted it into power through dialogue, negotiation and compromise (on both sides obviously)
3. Seek to change the views of Hamas and the people who voted it into power through force.

Now every rational person should instantly realise that it is impossible to change a person's views through force. It just doesn't work. So that cuts Israel's options down to two.

If Israel is to go with option 1, how does that make them any different to Hamas? If they are seeking the destruction of their opposition, isn't this the same intent as Hamas? If you feel Israel should take that route, you're welcome to your opinion, but don't pretend you're taking the moral highground and don't pontificate about the Hamas charter because if you're advocating this option you're no better.

I'm not pretending that dealing & negotiating with Hamas is by any stretch of the imagination an easy task. Far from it. But I simply don't see any other option.

Friday, January 27, 2006 12:19:00 pm  
Blogger RHRoss said...

It beats me how people can defend the abuse of Palestinians and the resultant social dysfunction that must entail, and then demand that those people are paragons of virtue.

It's okay for Israel to use the worst kind of violence and aggression against Palestinians to maintain the occupation and its colonisation but it's not okay for the Palestinians to respond aggressively.

Personally I wish they wouldn't but human nature being what it is generally when people are maltreated they hit back.

It's like chaining someone to the fence and kicking them every day and then condemning them for responding aggressively to you.

The dysfunction exists on both sides of course and I am hoping to see Hamas say they will stop violence if Israel stops its violence. That would mean dismantling all checkpoints, removing all soldiers from the West Bank, disarming the settlers and controlling them, ending torture of Palestinian prisoners and basically ending Israeli aggression.

Israel won't of course but it demands Hamas does.

I'd like to see UN peacekeepers brought in but there's probably a snowballs chance in hell of that too since Israel does not want anyone knowing what they have been doing and what they continue to do.

The irony is that it was Israel which kickstarted Hamas in the first place. And now it has turned around to bite it. Just like Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden and the Americans. We human beings are slow learners.

Friday, January 27, 2006 12:37:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Mike Jericho said...
"Edward, if you wouldn't mind responding, I have a question for you."

Sorry for not responding to you quickly enough, O captain, my captain.

"Do you believe that Hamas, with the support of the Palestinian people and that infrastructure the PA (and Hamas itself) boasts, it cannot pose any significant threat to Israel?"

Could HAMAS kill a couple of dozen Israeli citizens every six months or so? If they are able to get themselves organised, then maybe. THAT in no way could be construed as having the ominous tones of a "significant threat to Israel", however. Statistically, HAMAS is a SMALLER "threat to Israel" than heart disease.

This is NOT Germany in the 1930s or 40s. There are no more gas chambers. There are no more race-based European military states hell-bent on the destruction of Jewish people. Those days are gone. All Israel faces is a rag-tag bunch of children who have grown up under a brutal occupation that they believe the Israeli government has no intention whatsoever of ending. They know they aren't a serious threat to the Israeli state. That is the pathos of the suicide bomber: it is not an attempt to "destroy Israel" - no matter what the rhetoric; it's the most extreme form of protest possible. The only people who think a suicide bomber is a "threat to Israel" are those spin-doctors who try to motivate the masses by conjuring the dark times of 20th century Europe (and of course the sheep who believe them).

Wake up to reality. Israel is a military state that is armed to the teeth and beyond. For G+d's sake, it has NUCLEAR WEAPONS to protect 6+ million people! No other nation of comparible size could even dream of being the military dynamo that the Israeli state is. It isn't just capable of "defending itself", it is entirely capable of destroying other nations and peoples in the region. This is in no shape or form 1930s Germany with the Jews huddled in ghettos, facing a genuine threat to existence.

**

I find it interesting that you rely on fantasy scenarios and bizarro analogies rather than focusing on the reality of the occupation.

"And when has it exercized that tremendous, ruthless muscle?"
I'm talking about whether it's CAPABLE of defending itself from a few Palestinian militants with its armoured vehicles, tanks, helicopter gunships, fighter jets, and missles. I think it can. You don't seem to be capable of seeing that. That's called "delusional".

"Ah, yes, I recall. When it is invaded on all sides by massive Arab nations hellbent on its annihilation."
Two questions. (1) And how did that turn out and why? (2) Have there been any developments in the geo-politics of the region since then that would suggest to even a half-wit that this is unlikely to occur again - e.g. long-term diplomatic treaties, economic ties, etc?

"True, also, was the advantage the Americans enjoyed over the North Vietnamese."
I take it you have completely lost your mind now. We are not talking about the invasion of Vietnam by a military force in unfamiliar territory. We are not even talking about an invasion per se. The invasion occurred over 30 years ago. We are talking about an OCCUPATION WHICH HAS ALREADY OCCURRED and has been going on aaaaaall that time. More specifically, what you' talking about here is the "management" of the pesky invadees who refused to bugger off after the successful invasion.

"They don't need to achieve parity with Israel, you see. Not in numbers, weapons or technology. They only need the will to act, to destroy as many Israelis as possible."
Remember the scene from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" when King Arthur progressively lops off the limbs of the Black Knight, and yet the Black Knight keeps defiantly replying (even with no arms or legs) that he is a serious threat to Arthur. You seem to be the sort of person who would actually believe the Black Knight.

"Not soldiers, but civilians."
30 years of careful testing in the occupied territories has revealed that civilians are very suseptable to 'death by hot metal'. That's one of the reasons the occupation has been so successful.

"And they will. How many Israelis will then flee for America and other, safer lands?"
You swing from the language of absurdist possibilities, to the language of mapped-out prophesies so quickly.

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:01:00 pm  
Blogger Stev said...

That Monty Python analogy was beeeautiful Edward. Kudos to you!

Friday, January 27, 2006 3:22:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

When the Israelis voted in veterans of terrorist militias like Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, Benjamin Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon, men not only committed to war and territorial expansion, but also opposed to recognizing Palestinians as human beings, much less as equal negotiating partners, I don't remember many people suggesting that this proved that Israelis as a whole were devoted to state terrorism, or that Jews as a race reveled in war and endless bloodshed. And what about those fine Americans? Aren't they responsible, as a people, for re-electing Bush and thus endorsing his war and torture doctrine? There are plenty of people worldwide who believe this and think, should they get hit again by a terrorist attack, that they had it coming. But try saying that in the Australian and American media and see where it gets you. Yet when it comes to the Palestinians, few flinch when comparable arguments are made.

Amid these and other outbursts, some rather relevant history is being studiously avoided. Much is being said about Hamas' past, but no one is reminding us that Israel helped Hamas take its first serious steps as a political alternative to the PLO. Faced with a moderating Fatah that was calling for mutual recognition and mutual security guarantees, Israel, while continually rejecting these offers, began pushing and funding Hamas, which grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, in an effort to weigh down the PLO's secular nationalism and hopefully drain some of its support in the territories (as a US government official put it to UPI's Richard Sale in this 2002 piece, "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place . . . Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with"). This, combined with corruption in Fatah and its relocation to Beirut, worked incredibly well, as we now see. Factor in Hamas providing social services in some of the poorest areas of the territories, as well as being seen by many powerless and brutalized Palestinians as standing up to Israel, and what happened in these elections is really no surprise.

There are those, like former Saddam supporter Daniel Pipes, who are calling for Hamas' destruction, claiming that Hamas is the same as al-Qaeda and therefore must perish. Apart from the fact that al-Qaeda is not a fixed political/religious party that runs candidates in open elections, and that unlike Hamas, which derives what power it has directly from its own people, al-Qaeda is parasitic, as seen in Afghanistan and Iraq, attempting to destroy Hamas would be largely impossible, and would result in a massive death toll, given its deep support in the territories. Plus, it would lead to more terrorism, which death cultists like Pipes would welcome since he could then call for more violence against the Arab/Persian world. As it stands, Hamas has declared that it will continue to honor the cease-fire it negotiated with Israel in February 2005, so long as Israel does the same. Why would you attack someone who is holding up their end of a cease-fire? Again, in Pipes' case, the answer is obvious.

Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:49:00 pm  

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