Yesh Gvul
Courage To Refuse
Shministim
Pilots
Free The Five
New Profile
Refuser Solidarity Network


Name: Antony Loewenstein
Home: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Comment Rules
About Me:
See my complete profile



Google
Web antonyloewenstein.blogspot.com
Sweat-Shop Productions
Sweat-Shop Productions
Sweat-Shop Productions



Blogs

Sites




Previous Posts



Powered by Blogger

 


Monday, October 31, 2005

Two sides of the fence

The Israeli blogosphere rants and raves about the Gaza withdrawal, occupation, the West Bank and Palestinian human rights.

"Living in Gaza" is worth a read. Written by a Swedish woman who is married to a Palestinian native of Gaza, the couple recently moved to Gaza so that their young children would get to know the father’s family and learn more about his Muslim heritage.

22 Comments:

Blogger Shabadoo said...

I'm sorry, but how in the hell can anyone look at the pictures from the beach with people swimming clothed from head to toe and not realize what an absolutely ridiculous culture this is we're dealing with!

I just hope that this poor woman, if she ever decides to assert her independence, is able to get out with her children in one piece. Because right now, she and her children are no better than chattel property according to the local law.

(P.s. Is she Muslim herself? If not, why is she wearing the full get-up? Even pictures I saw of Rachel Corrie never acheived that level of dhimmitude).

Monday, October 31, 2005 11:08:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

It called making a choice Shab. And comming from a Swedish heritage, it's highly unlikely this poor woman doesn't know what it means to be a "liberated" woman.

Did you happen to notice that the family was also smiling? Perhaps you would prefer pictures of a wayward girl lying unconcious on the pavement outside a nightclub with a bottle of boubon in her hand?

Monday, October 31, 2005 1:23:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Shabadoo said...
"I'm sorry, but how in the hell can anyone look at the pictures from the beach with people swimming clothed from head to toe and not realize what an absolutely ridiculous culture this is we're dealing with!"

My Irish-Australian grandmother would disgaree with you. She's dismayed by the "outrageous" kit "those youngsters today" wear when referring to Aussie teenagers down at Coogee beach. She longs for happier times when true Australian values held way - not this disgusting American flesh culture (etc., etc.) I suppose to be consistent, you could always argue that Australia, not so long ago had an "absolutely ridiculous culture" too ... but then you would insulting the elderly hard-core who would agree with you about Iraq, Muslims, Arabs, terrorists, and everyone else who is not an Anglo Christian.

"I just hope that this poor woman, if she ever decides to assert her independence,"

...huh? I wasn't aware that marrying a Muslim (or is that an Arab - it all gets so confusing) was to sentence oneself to a life of slavery. I assume you're basing this on years of experience.

"is able to get out with her children in one piece. "

That may depend on Israel's none-too-precise "blow-up-to-kill" policy.

Monday, October 31, 2005 11:05:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Better than the Palestinian "blow up and kill as many women and children as possible" policy. Which includes arab women and children.

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:30:00 am  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

EMS: If you have no idea about the way women are dealt with in Islam, I suggest you read up on the topic. And then wonder where the feminist left is on this topic. Also, people have the choice to wear what they want, not have it imposed on them - no religious police is forcing them into bikinis.

Addamo: People in cults often look blissfully happy.

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 7:20:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Shabadoo said...
"EMS: If you have no idea about the way women are dealt with in Islam, I suggest you read up on the topic."

I asked my Muslim wife, and she disagrees with you. Does than mean she's not Muslim, dear Shaykh? Perhaps you suffer from jahiliyah due to reading silly websites rather than actually interacting with (g-d forbid!) flesh-&-blood Muslims. I have always found there to be a marked difference between the numerous pixelated versions of Islam and the numerous actually lived versions of Islam.

(I do like how you phrase things: "the way women are dealt with in Islam" - as if it is some strange, far-away place ... The Lost Island of Islam, with its strange customs and barbari rules, where the women are ... "dealt with". It's pitchable in L.A., I reckon.)

"Addamo: People in cults often look blissfully happy."

And people who aren't in cults often look blissfully happy too. Pyshcopaths sometimes look happy. Somestimes they don't. Some days it rains, and some days it doesn't. Christians who go to Church sometimes look blissfully happy, and sometimes don't. And pointlessly on and on...

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:29:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Edward, keep your anecdotes at home, in the kitchen.

Now pull out the stats. Women are treated as property in most Arab Islamic relationships.

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:49:00 am  
Blogger anthony said...

Perhaps you suffer from jahiliyah due to reading silly websites rather than actually interacting with (g-d forbid!) flesh-&-blood Muslims.

Interaction? Anyone else ever had Muslim women try and ask you a question- in my experience they will avoid eye contact, by actually looking away (in my imperialist western culture- that is disrespectful). Why do you think some Muslim women do that Ed? I've certainly never had a Christian woman not look at me when she is talking to me. I guess Christian women are just a lot more promiscuous and disobedient. Maybe Australians just don’t train their property as well as they do in the ME?

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:36:00 pm  
Blogger Glenn Condell said...

You are a low person shabadoo, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. Why the hell don't you bugger off to Israel and stop contaminating this place with your racism.

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:03:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

lol -- "why dont you bugger off to Israel...stop contaminating this place with your racism."

From now on, thats gotta be a classic Condell line.

Dunno about Shab, but whether on or off fire, I would piss on you, just for the sake of it, Condell.

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:19:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

Let me ask you something ED -- does your Irish grandmother belong to the religious police force who go around beating the sh8t out of anyone who they assume is inappropriatly dressed? If the answer is "yes," then I dont envy your child hood.

Even our good happy neighbour Malaysia has a religious police force which enforces Sharia law on women.

Slightly off topic - it was only a few months ago, that a woman, her fiance and her sister were murdered on a Gaza beach by Hamas "religious police" -- because they thought it inappropriate for a non married couples to be walking together. So on that note, if I was a woman on that same beach, I would be covering up from head to toe. Who can blame those women in the photo?
To be murdered or beaten to a pulp by a Taliban like police force, or your husband, brother or father - it certainly aint a matter of choice when it comes to dressing like that.

"I asked my Muslim wife, and she disagrees with you."

Your Muslim wife, needs to get herself a good Muslim husband (who would most probably beat the sh*t out of her), in order to comment. otherwise you cant consider her a good "Muslim wife." A good wife? maybe. But "Muslim" -- under Islamic law, good muslims dont marry kuffars.

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:36:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Edward, keep your anecdotes at home, in the kitchen."

Heil! Keep your racism out in the openm where we can see it. Oh, good, you are.

Now pull out the stats.

As you would say, do your own research foiler.

anthony said...
"Interaction? Anyone else ever had Muslim women try and ask you a question"

Every single day of the week. More often than not they are asking me questions.

"Why do you think some Muslim women do that Ed?"

I don't know. I'd have to ask them.

"Maybe Australians just don’t train their property as well as they do in the ME?"

Now there's a quote for one's tombstone that one could be proud of. (Oy - what a shmegegi.)

Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:46:00 pm  
Blogger anthony said...

Clever Ed, cut the bits you didnt think needed addressing. How 'Benny Morris' of you.

You turned this:

Interaction? Anyone else ever had Muslim women try and ask you a question- in my experience they will avoid eye contact, by actually looking away (in my imperialist western culture- that is disrespectful). Why do you think some Muslim women do that Ed?

Into This:

anthony said...
"Interaction? Anyone else ever had Muslim women try and ask you a question"

Every single day of the week. More often than not they are asking me questions.

"Why do you think some Muslim women do that Ed?"

I don't know. I'd have to ask them.


I didn't ask why women ask questions you fucking idiot, I asked why they avoid all eye contact while they do it. I'll answer for you- because Islam all-to-often involves suppressing women and would see any eye contact as sinful. Oh no! Attacking Islam, politically incorrect! Too bloody bad.

Wednesday, November 02, 2005 12:33:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

anthony said...
"I didn't ask why women ask questions you fucking idiot, I asked why they avoid all eye contact while they do it."

Well, blow me down. Racist religious bigots can swear in English too!

As to why "They" avoid eye contact:

1. I don't go around eye-balling every woman who walks down the street. Maybe sexual perverts do, but I don't. I'll leave it to you to figure out why you do.

2. I haven't noticed that "They" do avoid eye contact any more or less than anyone else. I must admit, however, that I haven't done any serious empirical eye-ball research. When are you publishing your stats?

"Islam all-to-often involves suppressing women and would see any eye contact as sinful"

Where is this guy Islam? He seems to do a lot of suppressing. I would have thought it was men who did the suppressing rather than a mutlifaceted, constantly reinterpreted set of ideas.

"Attacking Islam, politically incorrect! Too bloody bad."

Tallyho chaps!

Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:35:00 am  
Blogger anthony said...

Why am I a ‘Racist religious bigot’? Because I called you a fucking idiot (for your purposely deceiving half-quote) or referred to Muslims as ‘they’? Gee, I’m sorry- I’ll go back and re-do sociology 101 just so I know how to delicately refer to cultural, religious, cross-gender groups, and other assorted minorities.

“A woman is worth one-half a man”

(I suppose it’s still better than 1/14th of an elephant.)

“Don't pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately.”

“A man cannot treat his wives fairly.”

“When it's time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can't find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself.”

"Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves.”

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

Have you read The Trouble with Islam, Ed? Just curious.

Wednesday, November 02, 2005 1:52:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Such ignorance of Islam. Much exposure to Muslim people, Anthony? More than a few? Ever spoken at length to them? Ever spent extended periods of time in a Muslim country?
Of course, it's much easier to simply slam the religion as backward...

Wednesday, November 02, 2005 3:59:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

These Muslims have got to be as bigotted, racist and narrow minded as the Joooowish community of Australia? Right Flavious Rantsky?

Ive never been to a Muslim country myself although I have known Muslims personally -- and they happen to be good people. But sometimes I wonder about the nature of Islam as a religion itslef, especially when you have "moderates" like the Mufti of Australia (the leader of Australia's Muslims and head of the Federal Islamic council) or the former Prime Minister of Maylasia make Nazi like Goebellesque speeches.

Sometimes I wonder why the vast majority of todays conflicts and wars involve muslims or the fact that "honor killings" are rife and legally accepted in the Islamic world or that almost every Islamic country has a "religious police" or that In Australia itself police are asked to be culurally sensitive to Muslim men who beat their wives...need I go on?

What exactly are you trying to excuse, you sanctimonious hypocrite who purports to be a "dissident" who speaks out for human rights?

Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:33:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

anthony said...
"Have you read The Trouble with Islam, Ed? Just curious."

I assume you're talking about the book by Manji. Yes. It's certainly provocative and not a bad read overall. More 'heart than head', which that could be a desirable thing, depending on who's doing the reading. I agree with the general thrust of some of her concerns (e.g. the confusion of Saudi Arabian cultural norms with Islam itself - often the root of a number of other problems such as crypto-theocratic laws that oppress women in SA), although she certainly over-generalises a lot too which tends to undermine her arguments.

In relation to the "place" of Muslim women in Muslim sub-communities that I 'hang around', the sort of oppression one reads about, the behaviour you alluded to, etc., just doesn't exist. When you go on about the evils that Islam does, it just seems utterly alien to me because your words are so disconnected from lived experience. Sure, things are probably different in other places in the world, but that's precisely my point.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:09:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Eddie still has a problem acknowledging that women are treated as property in most Arab Islamic relationships.

Why is that? Complete ignorance? Denial? Or is he a racist who can't handle the truth?

Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:38:00 am  
Blogger anthony said...

I assume you're talking about the book by Manji. Yes.

I am impressed. It was a good eye-opening read, despite your valid criticisms.

In relation to the "place" of Muslim women in Muslim sub-communities that I 'hang around', the sort of oppression one reads about, the behaviour you alluded to, etc., just doesn't exist.

The behaviour I was talking about is drawn from my experience with first-generation Australian-Muslims in Melbourne. I agree the poor treatment of women by what I should probably have called fundamentalist Islam (throughout most of the ME) is much less likely to happen in Western states, given the fact that we have laws that aren’t drawn from the Koran.

When you go on about the evils that Islam does, it just seems utterly alien to me because your words are so disconnected from lived experience.

As Antony rather condescendingly pointed out (and does at every opportunity he gets), that is for the most part, correct. It was academic rather than personal.

Antony- don’t normally see you post twice, unless you have to defend your racist attitudes towards Asians, sorry bill leak’s attitudes. Of course, you have ample time to attack my credentials (unlike yourself, I never claimed to have any, so your questions are irrelevant).

Thursday, November 03, 2005 6:04:00 pm  
Blogger Comical_Ali said...

simple question - if women arent persecuted, abused and treated like objects in Islam, than why are police in Australia and other countries asked to be "culturally sensitive" when dealing with Muslim men who bash their wives.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 6:54:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Eddie still has a problem acknowledging that women are treated as property in most Arab Islamic relationships."

Ahh - you're such a dill, Ibrahim. What "most"? I haven't got any stats on it, so I wouldn't know about the numbers (you seem to know them however). (Incidentally, you should have been able to tell from previous posts by me - which you have responded to - that I'm no fan of Saudi law on dress-codes and freedom of movement. (Not surprising I suppose, given that it seems that you seem to go completely nuts whenever you see the words "muslim" or "islam". Red rag to a bull.)

"I agree the poor treatment of women by what I should probably have called fundamentalist Islam (throughout most of the ME) is much less likely to happen in Western states, given the fact that we have laws that aren’t drawn from the Koran."

It’s not a simple matter of a division between The Secular West and The Islamic Rest. It's a question of how the Qur’an is interpreted and what the dominant Islamic jurisprudential school is in a particular country. Saudi Arabia, for example, now dominated by Wahabbism, is awful. The pragmatic, multifaceted and highly flexible general approach to Islam in Indonesia on the other hand, produces entirely different results. They claim to be drawing on the Qur’an, but their interpretation is entirely different to what Saudi authorities say when they claim to be drawing on the Qur’an. (In fact, the Minangkabau cultural grouping in Indonesia – who are Muslim – have a, wait for it, matriarchally structured society!) In any case, I think you’ll find that the poor treatment of women in any given country has more to do with cultural norms than on this or that book.

Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:32:00 pm  

Post a Comment

<< Home