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Monday, November 14, 2005

Deluding themselves

The Melbourne Age reflects on the Israel/Palestine peace process and manages to avoid mentioning the occupation:

"It is increasingly clear that Israeli and Palestinian members of the moderate mainstream, who long for peace and accept each other's right to statehood, must stand together against extremists on both sides. These peace partners must marginalise the rejectionists - some of whom will stop at nothing to sabotage a settlement that will require pragmatic and painful compromises. While realignments are taking place in Israeli and Palestinian society, let there be no mistake: a crucial dividing line runs through both. It is the line between those with the vision to work together for peace and the blind ideologues who will never see that the human costs of their conflict are simply intolerable."

"Every Western pundit or official who pontificates about Palestinian terrorism", wrote Edward Said in 2001, "needs to ask how forgetting the fact of the occupation is supposed to stop terrorism."


Blogger Shabadoo said...

To turn Sa'id's saying around, do you believe that a return of Israel to original, tiny borders would *stop* terrorism, either in and of Israel or around the world?

Or would they just find some other excuse or grievance?

Monday, November 14, 2005 10:38:00 am  
Blogger Pete's Blog said...

Tis true Shab. There's plenty happening in Lebanon and Iraq to continue a western-Arab/Islam confrontation

I think the points made in Age article are so old as to be irrelevant.

Moderation is the last thing that is going to win in the Israeli/Palestine struggle. There is too much religious justification and more importantly, money poring in, to encourage continuation and more killing.

Monday, November 14, 2005 12:06:00 pm  
Blogger Shabadoo said...

But why do Christian girls get their heads lopped off in Indonesia? Buddhists get butchered in Thailand? Shopping centres torched in Denmark? Hotels blown up in Amman? Whole regions of African nations sent into sectarian violence?

Don't tell me it's all Israel and Iraq, all the time.

Monday, November 14, 2005 12:48:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

That's a good point Shab. The grivances raised also include the military presence of the US in the Middle East and support for totalitarian regimes. Nonetheless, these is reason to believe that returning the borders would likely reduce or remove the hostility towards Israel itself.

Seeing as this will never happen, it remains a very big "what if"?

Monday, November 14, 2005 12:57:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

There is absolutely no reason to believe that returning the borders would likely reduce or remove the hostility towards Israel itself.

Since there is absolutely no reason to believe it, there is absolutely no reason to do it.

Monday, November 14, 2005 2:14:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

That's prtty blinkered, when the crisis is about disputed territory.

Even so, what about fact that returning the territories would be the noble thing to do?

These terriroties aren't called "occupied" for nothing.

Monday, November 14, 2005 2:20:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Shabadoo said...
"But why do Christian girls get their heads lopped off in Indonesia?"

Because there is money to be made out of conflict - esp. gun-running. The Poso-Tentena fighting had been a nice little earner for a while. But then things calmed down. Now suddenly, we have this, and the shooting of two schoolgirls, a Christian and a Muslim, walking home together. The point of these crimes is to provoke a reaction ... which then leads to the insanity of 'an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye'... as per the Palestine Tragedy. [you'll be pleased to know the Christians are no amateurs when it comes to machetes either]

Monday, November 14, 2005 2:34:00 pm  
Blogger Ian Westmore said...

"That's prtty blinkered, when the crisis is about disputed territory."

There is no dispute. Israel has no right to the West Bank, its occupation is illegal. Indeed its only "legal" right is to the few small pockets of land granted to it by UN Resolution 181.

Even that is questionable. Does the UN really have the power to take someone's land and give foreigners sovereignty over it?

Monday, November 14, 2005 4:29:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"There is absolutely no reason to believe that returning the borders would likely reduce or remove the hostility towards Israel itself."

Ibrahamav: so you acknowledge that Israel is operating beyond its borders. Hooray! Progress!

Since you believe that

(1) Israel moving back behind its borders won't decrease hostility from Palestinians

and since

(2) staying in the occupied territories won't decrease hostility from Palestinians,

but (1) would increase international support for Israel and (2) makes Israel an international pariah (justified or not), one assumes a friend of Israel, such as youself, would advocate (1) with all his might.

Are you a friend of Israel? Or do you WANT Israel to be international pariah (that is, will you EVEN FURTHER verify my Theory that you are in fact an anti-semite)?

Monday, November 14, 2005 10:12:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Addamo has proved his lack of an education when he states that "That's prtty blinkered, when the crisis is about disputed territory."

Eddie - What borders do you speak of? I advocate defensible borders. It is not up to me to dictate to israel what they might be, but it is insane to listen to the advice of an antisemite like you in the same regard.

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:10:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Borders are by defnition, demarkation lines, are they not? By defensible borders, do you advocate operating beyond these perimeters or behind them?

What comes next, settlements are tehn established inthe area to deny reguse to the enemy. The new settlements then have to be protected of course, which in turn, requires that the exisiting borders be expanded.

Very clever process don't you think?

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 4:57:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Eddie - What borders do you speak of?"

You have the memory of a gnat. YOU said: "There is absolutely no reason to believe that RETURNING THE BORDERS would likely reduce or remove the hostility towards Israel itself."

You are, of course, referring here to the legally sanctioned borders of Israel-proper. (If you're not referring to that, but some fictionalised "defensive borders" then your original statement makes literally no sense.)

Now, why don't you tell us which position you advocate clearly? Is it option (1) or option (2)?

"I advocate defensible borders."

Addamo_01 has already made the point about the lovely self-expanding nature of this mendacious little strategy.

I on the other hand, agree that Israel should maintain defensive borders. And guess what the most defensible borders are in the long-run? The legally sanctioned borders because that would garner international support for Israel, ensure it's long-term viability, and allow it to become a relatively "normal" nation-state.

But of course, since you're radically opposed to Israel's long-term interests (what with you being an anti-semite and all), you would be opposed to this too.

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:38:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You are referring to the said lines as borders. There are no actual borders other than the Jordan separating Jordan fron Israel. And the lines separating Syria and lebanon from Israel, And the line separating Egypt from Israel.

There are no legally sanctioned borders at this time and UN resolution 242 recognizes that.

But an antisemite like eddie wouldn't know from things like that.

You may pull all of the positions you wish out of that ever expanding ass of yours. But nothing makes any of them correct.

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:10:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Seems you have some ass fettish going on Ibraham. Is there something you want to tell us

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:32:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

That you're an ass? No. You already knew that.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:41:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

I was wondering Ibraham, if you had ever had a girlfriend. You just made me rallise, you are never going to need one - not in this lifetime anyway.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:35:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Don't wonder. You'll only sprain what is left of your feeble mind.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 2:29:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Oh I see, you're into some really bizarre stuff.

Yes you're right, best we not go there.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:44:00 am  
Blogger Davo said...

Unfortunately this correlation between between settlement and terrorism may not be so strongh as you'd think.

The violence doesn't seem to have reduced overly since Israel pulled its settlers out of Gazza. Lets hope that the recent agreement in the news regarding Israel officialy handing security over to the palestinian authority will have an impact.

Perhaps the damage has already been done.

Friday, November 18, 2005 6:27:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Israel didn't leave gaza in order to reduce violence. It appears that the particular arab islamic mindset of the terrorists running that area don't consider that a reason to calm down.

Israel left to consolidate forces to better protect the citizens living in Judea and Samaria.

When the security barrier is complete, they can dismantle the check points and declare the next arab state.

Saturday, November 19, 2005 3:54:00 am  
Blogger neoleftychick said...

Actually, the really sad fact is that it is the Palestinians who have no legal right to be squatting on the West Bank. All the laws favour Israel.

Until these people are able to face up to the fact that it is their own "family" -Egypt, Jordan, and Syria that has put them in this mess, life and their future future will remain bleak for them.

Also, I must insist that grown adults cease and desist with Edward Said. Are you people serious? I can't believe that you would accept the hopelessly ignorant and serial liar Edward Said as an authority on these matters!

It really saddens me that so many people, particularly western middle-class university types who treat "Orientalism" as though it were unassailable holy scripture, the second law of thermodynamics or DNA code!

Said was a crank and an intellectual crook. True historians see him for what he was: a lying opportunistic whinger who simply could not admit that the Arab muslim world started to die in the 15th century, and that they haven't had the balls to admit ever since.

Enough already! What is wrong with these people? If it's not the Mongols, the Turks, the Persians, it's the British, the French, the Americans and "the Jews.

Time for them to grow up, shut up, and stop boring the shit out of the rest of us.

Monday, November 28, 2005 8:40:00 pm  

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