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Monday, November 21, 2005

This is not about Gaza

The following letter appears in today's Australian:

Your editorial ("A lifeline to Gaza", 17-18/11) overlooks the remainder of the occupied Palestinian territories and Israel's violations.

While we welcome Israel's withdrawal from any inch of Palestine, it is important to know that the Gaza Strip represents less than 1.5 per cent of historic Palestine, and what should not be overlooked here is what Israel is doing in the West Bank in terms of building and expanding settlements and the apartheid wall deep inside the occupied West Bank. The Wall, which is near completion, is twice as high and seven times as long as the Berlin Wall. It is 8m high and over 700km long, and consists of reinforced cement, barbed wire, electrical fences, trenches, electronic motion sensors, guard towers and military roads.

The Wall is having a devastating impact on the lives of Palestinians in the occupied territories, and by the time it is complete, it will close off the Palestinian territories from the outside world. Israel will control all entries and exits as well as all the aerial and electromagnetic space and approximately 56 per cent of the West Bank will be de facto annexed to Israel.

The land incorporated into Israel by the Wall is the richest agricultural land in the West Bank and includes the aquifer system which provides 51 per cent of the West Bank's water resources. The Palestinians will effectively be living in the largest prison in the world. What (Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon is trying to do is exchange the withdrawal from Gaza with the theft of 56 per cent of the West Bank as well as the entire city of Jerusalem. Needless to say this expansion is rejected by the Palestinians and will not bring peace, stability and security.

When will Israel understand that what it needs to build are bridges and peace with the Palestinian people and not walls?

Ali Kazak
Head of delegation to Australia and New Zealand
Ambassador of Palestine to Vanuatu and East Timor

81 Comments:

Blogger Human said...

Some News -
ERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon has decided to quit his Likud Party and set up a new party for upcoming general elections, Army Radio reported late Sunday.
Earlier, the moderate Labor Party voted to leave Sharon's coalition, already weakened by an internal Likud rift over
Israel's pullout from Gaza. Setting up a new party would scramble the political picture for the early election, set tentatively for March.
from yahoo news

Monday, November 21, 2005 11:16:00 am  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Yep, Israel is about to enter a rocky period. Let's hope Sharon is soundly defeated, but time will tell. Will write something about this once Sharon has confirmed the move.

Monday, November 21, 2005 11:21:00 am  
Blogger smiths said...

By KRISTEN HAYS, Associated Press Writer
Sat Nov 19,10:55 PM ET

HOUSTON - The leader of the largest branch of American Judaism blasted conservative religious activists in a speech Saturday, calling them "zealots" who claim a "monopoly on God" while promoting anti-gay policies akin to Adolf Hitler's.

Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the liberal Union for Reform Judaism, said "religious right" leaders believe "unless you attend my church, accept my God and study my sacred text you cannot be a moral person."

Yoffie did not mention evangelical Christians directly, using the term "religious right" instead. In a separate interview, he said the phrase encompassed conservative activists of all faiths, including within the Jewish community.

another jewish self hating rabbi

Monday, November 21, 2005 1:51:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Let's hope Israel's most popular politician is defeated? Why do you hate democracy?

As for Gaza being 1.5% of historic Palestine, that is incorrect. As Historic Palestine has parts of Jordan, Gaza is far less than 1.5%.

Monday, November 21, 2005 3:42:00 pm  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Becaue Sharon is a war criminal. As if the Israeli people continue electing him, it sends a pretty strong message to the world. Not unlike Howard in Australia, Bush in the US and Blair in the UK.

Monday, November 21, 2005 4:03:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Hey Ibrahamav, I'm just curious: do you think modern Israel should expand its current borders to include ALL the land set out in Numbers 34?

Monday, November 21, 2005 7:30:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

antony, antony, antony... Your war criminal statement just proves your bigotry. Sharon is no more a war criminal than Eisenhower, MacArther, Westmoreland, Puller, Lincoln, Washington, and other heroes. The message the Israelis send is that they are not about to give in to antisemites who wish their destruction, no matter how often they are published.

Eddie, you're not curious, you're just a schmuck. Peddle your hate elsewhere.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:36:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

I think Ibraham has a real soft spot for you Eddie.

Ibraham, corect me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Sharon already been recognised as a war criminal within Israel itself?

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:43:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I'm sure certain element of america viewed Washington as a war criminal, and the entire south view lincoln as a war criminal. So what you're asking is pretty meaningless.

The soft spot I have for eddie is that part of his head where his skull never closed over.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:56:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Yes, you have made a metaphorically valid point Inbraham, but my question is far from meaningless. When I last checked, Israel was not fragmented the way the US was in Washingtn's time. Political differences exist yes, but that's endemic of a democracy.

The fact that Sharon was found guilty of war crimes by an Israeli court, one that excercises internationally recognised jurisprudence, is unavoidable. The fact that the court was an Insraeli one, makes the indictment is even more severe.

Anyway, what this all means is that AL's reference to Sharon as a war criminal is based on historical fact, not antisemitism.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:38:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Exactly what war crime was Sharon found guilty of in an Israeli court?

And eddie established his antisemetic credentials well before this. He loves his mother? So he's an antisemite who loves his mother. He rides a bike? So he's an antisemite who rides a bike.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 4:12:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Hey Ibrahamav, so DO you think modern Israel should expand its current borders to include ALL the land set out in Numbers 34, or not?

Given your past statements, surely you can't be shy about voicing your beliefs here.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:07:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I repeat:

Eddie, you're not curious, you're just a schmuck. Peddle your hate elsewhere.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:57:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Actually Ibrahamav, I was only very mildly curious when I first asked, but since you have displayed such profound hostility to answering the question (which is very unusual for you), I am now very, very curious.

So, with that clarification out of the way, DO you think modern Israel should expand its current borders to include ALL the land set out in Numbers 34, or not?

It's not as if it's a difficult question.

Tuesday, November 22, 2005 11:40:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

You are such a hoot Ibraham,

Whenever a sensitive or controversial question about the Israeli/Palestinian issue is posed to you, you turn into a ferral cat who's been cornered ans trying to escape. Out come the claws and the hissing goes into the high decibals.

So now it appears uou have indeed elevated Eddie to the status of antisemete. How quickly things change.

Welcome aboard Eddie.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 12:38:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Addamo - your complaint has no merit. Eddie status of antisemite is not elevating, unless you're a neo-nazi looking for a buddy and you found one in eddie. Good luck with that.

As for eddie, he's a schmuck. All he is doing is baiting. You want the hook? Take it. Hope you choke on it.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 2:04:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You are so utterly predictable Ibraham.

It's so much fun watching you spinning around like a tornado. Since when did anyone nominatte you as judge and jury fo this forum you putz.

After all, if I were a neo-nazi, I'd have you on my side.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:35:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Predictable? Yes, when you spew antisemitism, I'm apt to call you an antisemite.

When you bait, it's probably because you're a schmuck.

You consider that being elevated? Then you're a moron. Predictably so.

So little judgement required to know your pea-brain.

Got any physics to enlighten us with? Sorry you opened your mouth and had to swallow your foot? Tough.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:59:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ibraham,

You are obviously an intelligent person, but when are you going to get it through your head that the excessive use of the word anti-Semitism is trashing it's significance – at least coming from you?

You use it so frequently, that in the context of your posts, it has been reduced to a punctuation mark.

You’ve even accused AL of anti-Semitism for stating a historical fact.

Just like the barrage of insults you hurl at people on this forum, it's like water off a ducks back.

It strikes me that you don't seem to have an appreciation of the severity of this accusation. IMO, being accused of being called an anti-semite is about as desirable as being called a pedophile.

Perhaps you should be more selective in it’s use, otherwise people get immune to it.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 11:32:00 am  
Blogger Antony Loewenstein said...

Very true.
Read this piece by Uri Avnery on this subject (it's been instructive for my book, too):

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery1002.html

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 1:32:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I accused eddie of antisemitism because he spouted as much, not for any historical fact. As such, he is an antisemite who, occasionally, spouts historical fact. Big deal.

You seem to be a duck who is drowning and hoping desparately that the rain stops.

I consider the accusation to be legitimate and it should be severe. Ever wonder why you've just parroted the favorite bromide of most holocaust deniers when accused of antisemitism?

I don't wonder. And if AL was honest, he wouldn't wonder either.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 2:26:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Fascinating article Anthony.

I had not realised that Cynthia McKinney was defeated. That's such a tragedy. She was one of the few who even dared question Rumsfeld over the missaporpriation of US$3 billion by the Pentagon, or the reports of pedophile rings conducted by Dyncorp.

As for the spread of anti-Semitism, I am surprised to learn this. Judging by Avnery's article, it seems that it is perhaps more a resentment of Israel's conduct than hostility towards Jews.

Having said that, I can't help but feel that Zionism promotes the belief that anti-Semitism is endemic to non Jews. When reading Ibraham's posts, I struggled to get my head around what kind of indoctrination produces such an accute persecution complex. It is the first time I have come across someone who takes defensiveness to such extremes.

There appears to be no middle ground, much less, any effort to establish one.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 2:43:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Dear Ibrahamav,

I really don't know why you keep saying that I (and just about everyone else) is anti-semitic. If people here were saying anti-semitic things, then it would be understandable, but since no-one has, it's all a bit of a mystery.

Could you be able to make clear and explicit the grounds for making such an assertion about me? I think it would be instructive.

Now, as to my question - "Do you think modern Israel should expand its current borders to include ALL the land set out in Numbers 34, or not?" - all I was actually interested in was how you interpret passages such as those in Numbers 34. I was curious about this because I haven't "met" anyone on-line before who thinks in quite the same way as you do.

I see now that you regard the question as "bait". I didn't think about it in that way, but I assume then that you believe I am setting a "trap" of some kind for you. I'm not entirely sure what this "trap" could be, but you have obviously thought the whole thing through. Given that, presumably it should be no problem for you to "escape" from it IF you are thinking "one or two moves ahead". Or are you saying that your answer will put you into a "trap" from which there is no "escape"? If that is true, then I could understand your reluctance to answer the question. Is this why you are so reluctant?

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:46:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Tell me Ibraham,

Obviously you frequent this forum for a reason, and I trust it's not merely to pick fights with other people. Seeing as you are convinced you are surrounded by anti-Semites, are you endeavoring to enlighten these people to develop an awareness of their anti-Semitic leanings (with the desire to help them overcome it), or do you see your role as merely to condemn them?

If it is the latter, then surely you have achieved your goal and there is no reason for you to return. The fact that you keep coming back suggests it's to satisfy a greater cause, which deserves respect.

So what is your game plan to combat the anti-Semitism Ibraham? Do you believe that by alienating those around you, anti-Semitism will some to an end? Or do you think that constructive engagement might yield more fruit?

Are you here to exchange ideas with others, or do you consider yourself a member of some Zionist thought police?

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:51:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

I really don't know why you keep saying that I (and just about everyone else) is anti-semitic.
********************************

I don't know why antisemites always use the expression "(and just about everyone else)" other than as a canard.

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 10:03:00 pm  
Blogger Mannie said...

And I am waiting for the definition of anti-semite with which this abusive person is so obsessed!

Thursday, November 24, 2005 12:08:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Addamo, you are attempting to convince me I'm surrounded by antisemites? Rather strange, coming from you.

In fact, you merely demonstrate an antisemitic outlook. Using terms such as "zionist thought police", and "Zionism promotes the belief that anti-Semitism is endemic to non Jews" is a pretty clear indication of your thought process in the matter.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 12:14:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ibrahamav....I would not assume to to convince you of anything. You have labelled a number of people on the forum and anti-semitic; people who have been identified by you alone as anti-semitic. How do you intend to tackle this problem that you perceive?

My reference to Zioniust thought police was obviously sarcastic, but the joke was lost on you. As Edward expressed, I too have never come across someone who thinks like you. I am grappling with what makes you arrive at your conclusions, so I considered whether a fundamentalist has indoctrinated you to regard all goyim as potential enemies.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 12:39:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

A number? Actually, only a few. Your suggestion regarding 'goyim', is of course a patented one used by many antisemites. Why would you use it? Hmmm?

I, too, grapple with what makes ordinary fellows like you antisemitic, and why do you fail to recognize it? Is it that you do recognize it but are embarrassed to admit it? You feel you can hide it with fancy catch words and phrases dreamt up by antisemites who came before you?
Who knows?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:03:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

A few?

Myself, Edward, AL and Dirt come to mind. I;m sure you have used it elsewhere.

So having concluded that we are anti-Semitic, what do you propose to do about it? If you maintain that anti-Semitism is an incurable ilness, then what do yo hope to achieve by continuuing to engage anti-Semites? Don't you have other dragon's to slay?

Surely an enlightened person like yourself has the answers.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:35:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
Your suggestion regarding 'goyim', is of course a patented one used by many antisemites. Why would you use it?"

Addamo_01 probably picked up the idea from one of those fundamentalist pro-Zionist websites that keep going on and on about it all the time. That's where I picked it up - from pro-Zionists. (I assumed - perhaps falsely in your view - that pro-Zionists would have some knowledge of Zionism.)

I wouldn't imagine you would classify them as anti-semitic ... umm, would you? (It's so hard to tell where your mind will jump next!)

P.S.
"Do you think modern Israel should expand its current borders to include ALL the land set out in Numbers 34, or not?" Will your answer to this question put you into a "trap" from which there is no "escape"? Is this why you are so reluctant to answer the question?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 4:37:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Actually, I have been called Goyim with playful affection by Jewish friends. I never considered it a derogatory term. Gentile is a tad biblical and personally, non-Jew implies segrationism.

But getting back to Edwards question. I would certainly be cusious to hear your answer Ibraham.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:40:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Eddie, whatever you picked up came from neo-nazi sites. It is fairly obvious.

Exactly how many Jewish zionists (and remember, all Jews who consider themselves to be Jews, religiously, are Zionists)believe modern Israel should expand to the boundaries noted in Bamidbar?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:20:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Are you battling dyslexia Ibraham, or are suggesting that the pro-Zionists web site is in fact inspired by neo-nazism?

I believe Eddie ansked you a question first. The polite thing would be to give him answer, beofer asking one of him no?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:46:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I am suggesting that eddie is not honest.

Additionally, politely answering a dishonest question is not a requirement of anyone for anything.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:31:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You're like an eel Ibraham, only much more slippery.

What is it with you? Do you have a phobia about anwering any question about your convictions?

Who gives a damn whether Eddie is honest or a con artist. I promise you, he doesn't bite. You don't have to hand over any money. It's not a trap.

Just answer the question. Do you need him to explain the question to you?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 9:18:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Answering any question? Or a question such as "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

I need to know why he needs an answer to a question that has no bearing on the discussion. I wonder why eddie is so coy about his antisemitism. Do you know why?

after all, he has no reputation to protect.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 9:31:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

There you go again, off on some nebulous tangent because you are so paranoid about being outsmarted by Edward. Has your shrink ever mentioned that you have severe trust issues?

You refuted someone’s suggestion that Gaza was 1.5% of historic Palestine, stating that "Historic Palestine has parts of Jordan, and that in Gaza, it is far less than 1.5%".

Great. So you obviously have strong opinions about where regional borders should lie. It therefore stands to reason that you have an equally strong opinion about where Israel’s borders should lie.

Eddie’s question is very much on topic. Why are you so afraid to share your views?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 9:53:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

One more think Ibraham,

Your "need to know" suggests that you are indeed nervous about whether Edward has set some kind of trap for you.

Take it easy. What's the worst thing that could happen? Do you really think that people are going to come knocking on your door if you state that you belive in the aspiration of greater Israel?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 10:06:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Out-smarted by eddie? Someone has to be worried about being out-smarted by eddie? Those poor people.

Again, exactly how many Jewish zionists (and remember, all Jews who consider themselves to be Jews, religiously, are Zionists)believe modern Israel should expand to the boundaries noted in Bamidbar?

Or perhaps a better question is: How many, of the above, believe Israel will eventually have those same boundaries? How many non-jewish zionists believe it?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:21:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

It just occurred to me you have answered Eddie's question with your rhetorical question.

Someone who has such unbending views on what defines a religious Jew (i.e. Zionism), must themselves believe and live by this doctrine.

So it can assume that you do believe modern Israel should expand to the boundaries noted in Bamidbar.

You could just as easily have come right out and said it Ibraham. See it’s not so bad is it?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:55:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Unbending views? You send so...judgemental? Like one with unbending views? And from the fact that I question eddie's motives and wonder if he has any idea how many Jewish zionists (and there are about 13-15 million of them, depending on who is counting how many Jews there are in the world) and no one here has even ventured to guess how many believe modern Israel should have expantion of its borders to teh limits set in Bamidbar, and how many believe that Israel will have such borders.

But you pronounce judgement upon Jews without any of that knowledge.

Exactly as any antisemite would do. Funny how that happened, isn't it?

I have said nothing, but, because you have this fixed, antisemitic idea, you have decided my opinion.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 12:51:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

You are too frightened to offer an opinion, and besides, people reveal a lot by the questions they ask. You are very transparent Ibraham, like it or not, and entiely predictable.

For you to accuse me of being judgemental, while I and others, bend over backwards to understand your ideas, is laughable. I am using the yardsticks you have mentioned in your screeds to make deductions, but by all means, feel free to correct my assumptions.

Do you have the answer to the number of Jewsih Zionists who believe is greater Israel? You stated that all Jews who identify themselves religiocusly as Jews are Zionists. By this definitition, would it not follow that all Jewish Zionists are automatically, committed to a greater Israel? Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm more than happy to be corrected.

And when you're done, be a man and answer Eddie's question.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 1:09:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Okay, okay, so you're not going to answer my question. Sheesh!

How about a simpler definition-type question:

Do "religious Jews" take the words written in the five books of the Torah literally?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:51:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Have you found any Jew taking the entire Torah literally?

Why don't you try a simple question? Could it be assumed that the average Jew finds eddie to have an antisemitic bent, based on his various posts on this blog? Yes. That is a reasonable assumption.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:29:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

By average and reasonable, you certainly must be excusing yourself Ibraham. You are quite a "special" case, to put it politely.

There is nothing anti-Semitic about Eddie's posts. Most, if not all, are humanitarian and empathetic. What drives you batshit Ibraham, is that the dragnet of human rights interferes with your bias.

But what really infuriates you is the way Eddie so effortlessly exposes your bigotry and your hypocrisy.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:38:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Have you found any Jew taking the entire Torah literally?"

No, I can't say I have ever met a Jewish person who takes the entire Torah literally, but since I don't know what you mean exactly by "religious Jew" (aside from the fact that they're all Zionists), it is possible I have simply never met a person who you would classify as a "religious Jew".

That said, I have met Jewish people who say that the entire Torah is "the literal word of g~d" (which is a slightly different thing). They say that those passages which are clear and non-metaphorical should be taken as "literally true". Do you agree with THESE people?

Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:22:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Addamo, a fellow antisemite would heartily agree with you. That eddie is an educated takes nothing away from the antisemitic tendenccies he exposes. Possibly you enjoy the way he changes the terms, as he did in his last?

Eddie, I have never used the term "religious Jew" so I don't have a classification definition.

I don't know what passages are clear and non-metaphorical according to the Jewish people you have met.

Thursday, November 24, 2005 10:03:00 pm  
Blogger Mannie said...

While we are on the subject of percentages, here are a few more.
The Jewish Virtual Library, a division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise provides a table of the Jewish Population of the World (2005).
The table shows a total Jewish population of 14,596,017 which is 0.227% of the World's population.
The number of Jews in Israel is 5,021,506 or 34.4% of the total, which means that 9,574,511 Jews don't live in Israel.
If so many of these Jews are zionists, why are they living in the diaspora which is presumably full of anti-semites waiting to kill us all, because we don't go and live in Israel?
Israel will need the whole of the West Bank to fill with diaspora Jews if they all decide they are being persecuted in their homelands.
The USA has 5,914,682 Jews. Are they about to give up their US lifestyles and emigrate to Israel? And if not, why not if they are nearly all zionists?
Similarly Australian Jews number 90,406 of which apparently, according to the Australian Jewish News, most are zionists. However, they continue living in Australia.
If the call of Israel is so strong, why are they still here?

Friday, November 25, 2005 12:38:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ibraham,

You are clearly unable to make any distinction between the advocacy of human rights, justice and anti-Semitism.

The anti-Semitic tendencies of Eddie and myself appear visible only to you (and your imaginary friends), which probably has less to do with fact, and more to do with the medication you keep forgetting to take.

And yes you have referred to Jews who identify themselves are "religious Jews". Why deny it? Is your memory deteriorating as rapidly as your ability to construct logic thought?

Friday, November 25, 2005 12:42:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Eddie, I have never used the term "religious Jew" so I don't have a classification definition......I don't know what passages are clear and non-metaphorical according to the Jewish people you have met. "

Oh, if it is the nitpicking over the term "religious Jews" that is preventing you from answering, let me use words that you will find acceptable (since you wrong them - or copied and pasted them). And if you "don't know what passages are clear and non-metaphorical according to the Jewish people you have met", let me add an example.

Here is my post, tailored just the way you like it:

No, I can't say I have ever met a Jewish person who takes the entire Torah literally, but since I don't know what you mean exactly by "Jews who identify themselves religiously as Jews" (aside from the fact that they're all Zionists), it is possible I have simply never met a person who you would classify as a "Jew who identify him/herself religiously as a Jew".

That said, I have met Jewish people who say that the entire Torah is "the literal word of g~d" (which is a slightly different thing). They say that those passages which are clear and non-metaphorical should be taken as "literally true". For example, they take the following from Deuteronomy literally:

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.
ה וְאָהַבְתָּ, אֵת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, בְּכָל-לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁךָ, וּבְכָל-מְאֹדֶךָ.
ו וְהָיוּ הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם--עַל-לְבָבֶךָ.
ז וְשִׁנַּנְתָּם לְבָנֶיךָ, וְדִבַּרְתָּ בָּם, בְּשִׁבְתְּךָ בְּבֵיתֶךָ וּבְלֶכְתְּךָ בַדֶּרֶךְ, וּבְשָׁכְבְּךָ וּבְקוּמֶךָ.
ח וּקְשַׁרְתָּם לְאוֹת, עַל-יָדֶךָ; וְהָיוּ לְטֹטָפֹת, בֵּין עֵינֶיךָ.
ט וּכְתַבְתָּם עַל-מְזֻזוֹת בֵּיתֶךָ, וּבִשְׁעָרֶיךָ.

Do you agree with THESE people?

Friday, November 25, 2005 1:13:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Why would you print the Shema and ask if I agree with those people who believe that is the only thing? Is That all they believe? What is their understanding of heart, soul, and mind? How do you understan with your heart? How could it then be literal since your heart understands nothing but the eltrical pulse that causes it to beat, and that isn't even an understanding.

Addamo, as your only friends are imaginary, you must have confused your identification.

Manny, I can't answer for the Jews who are not yet living in Israel, just as I can't answer for the Jews who refused to leave Germany when the opportunity arose.

Friday, November 25, 2005 3:43:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Based on your statement, "I can't answer for the Jews who are not yet living in Israel", would it be correct to assume that you live in Israel Ibraham?

Friday, November 25, 2005 3:53:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"Why would you print the Shema and ask if I agree with those people who believe that is the only thing?"

I'm giving AN EXAMPLE. I'm sure it's not the ONLY thing.

"Is That all they believe?"

I doubt it, but I'd have to ask.

"What is their understanding of heart, soul, and mind? How do you understan with your heart? How could it then be literal since your heart understands nothing but the eltrical pulse that causes it to beat, and that isn't even an understanding."

How would I know? I'm just telling you what they said to me. You want me to go and conduct extensive theological question-&-answer sessions with them to find out in detail exactly what they think they mean by this? C'mon. This sounds like you're looking for yet another way of not answering a simple question.

I ASSUME that your answer implies that you don't think the Shema should be taken literally. Perhaps that means you don't think anything at all in the Torah should be taken literally. Would that be correct? Or are there passages in the Torah that you would take literally?

Friday, November 25, 2005 8:40:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

The only part of the Shema that can be taken literally, is the opening lines, and even then, wha was being address and why are the letters enlarged?

But you are not here for a theological lesson. Go back to cheder if that's what you want.

Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:46:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

OK, so would you regard the passages in Numbers 34, for example, as ones that should not be taken literally? Or should they be treated metaphorically too? And if so in what sense?

Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:12:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Go to cheder.

Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:21:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Cheder & ibrahamav-chicken sandwich. It's not quite kosher, but I do so like chickens.

It would have saved a lot of time if you had simply said at the beginning: "I'm not tellin' 'cause I'm chicken." Please do this in future when you are too scared to answer a simple question.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:59:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

What simple question did you ask? Is Edward Mariyani-Squire an antisemite?

Simple enough. I would say yes.

Any other question you have in mind that isn't an admission of your utter ignorace? Questions regarding your normal ignorance will probably be answered.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 5:13:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Eddie, whatever you picked up Eddie, once again, you'll get no answer from me regarding Bamidbar till you answer this. Aditting ignorance is fine, eddie, most of us already recognize that trait in you.

"Exactly how many Jewish zionists (and remember, all Jews who consider themselves to be Jews, religiously, are Zionists)believe modern Israel should expand to the boundaries noted in Bamidbar?"

Sunday, November 27, 2005 6:50:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Or that Israel should be at the borders of what is stated in Bamidbar?

Come on eddie, scared to answer?

You can admit your fear, many of your fellow antisemites will support you in defeat.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 6:52:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You moron Ibraham.

Your question is a pure distration. You yourself said you would not answer Eddie unless you knew what his reasons were for asking.

Sounds like you are an untter coward and a control freak.

You have proven that you are nothing more than a myopic nationalist and sociopath.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 8:44:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

The question remains, and eddie's to scared, or to ignorant, to answer it.

Why don't you answer it for him addamo? You've done everything else including licking his butt.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:02:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
Ibrahamav said...
Ibrahamav said...


He he. Looks like Ibrahamav has kiniptions whenever he gets unmasked as the chicken he is.

Ibrahamav said...
"What simple question did you ask? Is Edward Mariyani-Squire an antisemite? Simple enough. I would say yes."

Yeah, but since you call dogs that bark at you, waiters to forget to bring you a glass of water, internet connections that are slow, Arabs, and jubes 'anti-semites', it means nothing. Everyone knows that now. Contratulations - you've rendered your only weapon impotent.

And we both know that is not the question. Is my question SO confronting to you that you have repressed all memory of it?

Ibrahamav said...
"you'll get no answer from me regarding Bamidbar till you answer this: "Exactly how many Jewish zionists (and remember, all Jews who consider themselves to be Jews, religiously, are Zionists) believe modern Israel should expand to the boundaries noted in Bamidbar?" "

Huh? You want me to go around the world and survey everyone to find out the answer to this? That is waaaay too much work for just one person. Is there a survey company somewhere that has already done it? And what does it have to do with my original question to you anyway?

Ibrahamav said...
"Or that Israel should be at the borders of what is stated in Bamidbar?"

And THAT'S a different question altogether.

"Come on eddie, scared to answer?"

Errr - as I said before, no. How could I know the answer. I haven't done the world-wide survey to find out. And again, what does this have to do with your own views on the matter. You DO HAVE your own views on the matter, don't you?

"You can admit your fear, many of your fellow antisemites will support you in defeat."

Now I don't know what you're talking about at all.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:19:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No, eddie, just people like you. That's why they don't hire you as a waiter.

I see you are too chicken or ignorant or 'caught in your own trap' to answer the question. Oh well, it might have been quite illuminating for you. But we wouldn't want that.

And if you don't realize you lost again, don't expect me to explain it.

Sunday, November 27, 2005 11:39:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"I see you are too chicken or ignorant or 'caught in your own trap' to answer the question. Oh well, it might have been quite illuminating for you. But we wouldn't want that."

I'm still hearing the ocean coming out of your answers. I suppose we'll just have to leave the matter at: let the record show that Mr Ibrahamav declined to answer the question.

Monday, November 28, 2005 1:44:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I still don't see eddie answering the question. Too bad. He would have learned something. But antisemites hate having to shake their illusions.

Monday, November 28, 2005 2:14:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Score so far:

Eddie 3
Ibraham 0

Monday, November 28, 2005 3:30:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

As one would expect an antisemite to score the encounters.

Monday, November 28, 2005 7:35:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You are the one obsessed with winning, but being a loser does that to peopel.

It's a count of the number of questions asked of you and the number you ended up actualyl answering.

As a first class corward, you should be proud.

Monday, November 28, 2005 8:19:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I'm not obsessed about winning, I just happened to have won.

Count the number of questions? Why bother. Eddie has proven unable to answer the important ones.

You're so upset by eddie losing, you're foaming at the mouth. Calm down. Your life is not on the line, and your reputation was lost when you lied about your credentials.

Monday, November 28, 2005 9:31:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You have run away from asking crucial questions on no less than 3 occasions. You have no courage of your convictions. The reason has become very obvious to all. You know that your extremist beliefs cannot be supported by sound reasoning, but are fuelled by prejudice, hatred and racism. Your own shame is also obvious.

I lied about nothing Ibraham, and I most certainly am not bothered about winning or losing. Eddie continues to publicly humiliate you and you just come back for more.

You claimed to ask me a question to prove my credentials, which I never received. I invited you to re-ask it and you, being to scared to be proven wrong, ran away like the coward that you are.

I certainly admire your stamina, though I wonder about your wisdom and when you will come to learn your lesson.

Monday, November 28, 2005 10:15:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Don't you think eddie sphincter is getting chafed from your lips?

When you could not prove your credentials by answering a simple question (Which anyone slightly familiar with your field of expertise would have no trouble answering, or at least know what they were looking for on line, I mean who rememebrs all of those formulas we learned in reactor design?) it was simple to deduce you lied.

Monday, November 28, 2005 10:33:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

You are truly pathetic. Disagreeing with you makes me an anti-demite but agreeing with Eddie makes me an arse kisser.

No Ibraham. Eddie's intelligence and eluquence makes you look like a neanderthal that's all.

No I did not lie. I invited you to ask me another question and you were too sacred to ask me.

Anyway, it's f litter importance. You yourself stated that Nazi's were also educated, so education is proof of nothing.

Don't you hate it that I always right?

Monday, November 28, 2005 10:52:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"I still don't see eddie answering the question. "

Ibrahamav, aren't you reading my answers? To your question(s):

"Exactly how many Jewish zionists (and remember, all Jews who consider themselves to be Jews, religiously, are Zionists) believe modern Israel should expand to the boundaries noted in Bamidbar?"
"Or that Israel should be at the borders of what is stated in Bamidbar?"

I told you that I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS because these are survey questions that would require me to travel across the globe with my trusty clip-board to get the answers for you.

Surely you don't expect me to know what is on the minds of "all Jews who consider themselves to be Jews, religiously"?

I appreciate the confidence you have in me, but I don't have magical superpowers.

So as you can see, I answered your question as best I could. Now, do you have the gumption to answer my simple little question, or are you going to continue cowering in the closet?

Monday, November 28, 2005 2:17:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No, you didn't answer the question the best you could, you merely came up with a reason to refuse to answer the question as you cower in the closet.

Sounds simple enough doesn't it?

I would venture to guess that the actual answer to the first question is none. The second question has NK in the answer.

Monday, November 28, 2005 2:33:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"No, you didn't answer the question the best you could"

Well can you at least give me a clue about how I could find out "exactly how many Jewish zionists...believe modern Israel should expand to the boundaries noted in Bamidbar"?

I really do have no idea how I could find this out except by surveying each Jewish Zionist. You seem to be implying there is another (easier) way of finding out.

Monday, November 28, 2005 9:02:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You have no idea if any jewish zionists believe if modern Israel should expand to the borders mentioned in Bamidbar. In fact, you don't know what those borders are.

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:30:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ahhh - NOW I see what you're saying! Finally! So: where to YOU believe that they are?

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 1:05:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Where do I believe what are? (I wonder what the wanker is fishing for)

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 2:12:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Yet another non answer Ibraham. How original.

Are you ever goign to andress Eddie's quesrion? Or you just goign to continue to commen on hwi mostivation for asking?

You are such a frightened little boy aren't you?

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 9:59:00 am  

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