Free The Five
Name: Antony Loewenstein
Home: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
See my complete profile
posted by Antony Loewenstein at 12/01/2005 03:51:00 pm
Rather scary to think about it - If Sharon is "middle of the road" what are the Right Wing????.
Yup - real Israeli moderates and Palestinians always run the risk of being runover by a certain former General.
orang said... "Rather scary to think about it - If Sharon is "middle of the road" what are the Right Wing????"Orang, for truly psychopathic right-wing Zionism, look no further than the JEWISH TASK FORCE: "Ariel Sharon is a lifelong leftist whose opportunistic masquerade as a political "conservative" endangers Israel's very survival".
There are no moderate palestinians. The moderate Israeli wants nothing but the separation of the palestinian from contact in Israel. This has nothing to do with the 1.2 million Arab citizens of Israel, but the apparant typical palestinian who longs for the destruction of Israel.Hopefully Sharon will complete this separation and Israelis will no longer be barraged with the sermons from the palestinian mosques with their 'death to the Jews' cries.
Ibrahamav said... "Hopefully Sharon will complete this separation and Israelis will no longer be barraged with the sermons from the palestinian mosques with their 'death to the Jews' cries."He would help things along IMMENSELY if he dismantled of settlements (as per Camp David), withdrew the IDF from the West Bank, allowed a UN force to come in to get some guns on the ground that at are (and are perceived to be) impartial, and sensibly divided Jerusalem (with the Dome on the Rock coming under Palestinian sovereignty).Sure, in the short run, there will still be some Palestinian suicide attacks and there will still be some indiscriminate shootings by Jewish zealots. There is no escaping that. The crazies on each side don't want a bar of any genuine solution - least of all something as reasonable as this. It is a matter of gritting the teeth and weathering the storm to push through to a just peace.I firmly believe that the key to long-run peace is NOT through secuity, but precisely the coverse of this: the key to long-run security is through a just peace.
You and the vast majority of palestinians have an unrealistic understanding of 'just peace'. The israelis know that and will deal with it through separation.If it doesn't work, they'll try something else.Exactly how many "indiscriminate shootings by Jewish zealots" are there each year?
Good question.Indiscriminate shootings are about as indiscriminate as suicide bombings.
Indeed they are. Now since eddie so linked them together, how many "indiscriminate shootings by Jewish zealots" are there each year?
Ibrahamav said... "Indeed they are. Now since eddie so linked them together, how many "indiscriminate shootings by Jewish zealots" are there each year?"Do you want an average? And if so, what should be the base year? If not, just aggregate numbers for the last few years?
And I presume we can include the IDF in that figure?
AL, If you wish to presume something antisemitic, it is your blog. It won't be the first you have done so.Again eddie, how many "indiscriminate shootings by Jewish zealots" are there each year?
edward mariyani-squireAs per Camp David? Hun, give us a break! Which laws, Resolutions, Agreements are the "Palestinians" deigning to acknowledge THIS week?Please. There is no way in hell that they could organize a state. Their only state apparatus is freaking Hamas for the love of god.It is time for some tough-love I'm afraid. UNRWA must be dismantled immediately, and Syria and Jordan told to let the "refugees" in.Then all the "refugees" must be told to shut the fuck up, get a job and get a life!Any person who does the suicide bomber shuffle should be told well in advance that their entire extended family will never be allowed to enter Israel or the West Bank ever again.Enough of the Foucault, Edward Said, and Muslim whingeing and whining. It's boring. NEEEEEXT!
Why hasn't somebody offered this solution before? It's perfect.Palestinian wishes are irrelevant and Israel can dictate terms. Hang on, that's been happening for decades already.
AntonyWhy do you expect Israel to pay the entire cost of this admittedly very wretched state of affairs? Why mustn't the UK, Jordan, Syria, and the Palestinians themselves have to contribute?In any other circumstances the actions of Israel would be insupportable; but Israel has been just as abused in this whole sorry saga. What people like you seem to want to do is to punish Israel for compromising and still managing to "keep it together" in spite of the never-ceasing will-to-destroy that has pushed at its existence for decades.
Maintaining a brutal occupation for nearly 40 years doesn't exactly give Israel much sympathy in my book, nor in many others. Responsibility lies on all sides, agreed, but never forget who is occupied and who is the occupier.
antonyIsrael has NOT "occupied" for 40 years. Israel WON territory during a 2nd attempt to obliterate it. The territory it won was the West Bank. The West Bank was stolen illegally by the Palestinian state of Jordan in 1948. It stole this land because it did not want the "Palestinians" to have their own state. There is nothing more or less anyone can say to this clear and irrefutable fact. During that Palestinian (Jordan) state's 20 year illegal occupation, nobody raised a peep; however, Palestinians still could not let it rest and kept snipping at Israel's borders, blowing Jews to bits. During this period, why weren't these Palestinian "refugees" converted into something more dignified by their brothers and sisters? Why didn't they form their state?And then when Israel totally legitimately keeps the land for security purposes after 1967, suddenly Israel is the evil one?PLEASE! help me here. What sort of contorted logic and notions of "justice" have you allowed yourself to be indoctrinated with?
So Israel isn't actually running an occupation? That position isn't even shared by Ariel Sharon anymore, but keep those delusions going.
antonyYour avoidance of the substance of my arguments is very telling about just how shaky the foundations of your views are.
Exactly right, neolefty. Antony doesn’t engage in proper discussion, he merely whines about your sources, attacks you personally, or ignores the issue(s) you raise in favour of the current state of Palestinians, blaming this on Israel and the US, and ignoring any responsibility on the part of so-called heroes like Arafat, or the perceived underdog- the Arab world.
There is an interesting conflict in the arguments of the Zionist psychopaths on this list.If the occupied territories were won by military conquest then violent resistance is entirely commensurate. What are ZIonists complaining about then?And where does that leave the argument that God handed it over to them some several thousand years ago?And all this on entirely racial grounds (apart from the ersatz lot masquerading as Jews for the benefit of an Israeli passport.)Zionists as the new Nazis. The lineage is transparent.
Evan JonesThere, there dear. It's alright, Teletubbies will return soon. Who gives a damn about the freaking Bible? The Jews have that land because they earnt it and have defended it. I'm all for resolving this dispute with "violent resistance." If only the Americans and the Russians hadn't interfered in 1948, 1967, and 1973 and just let them go at each other until a winner emerged, we wouldn't be being bored to tears with their interminable whingeing.And actually dear, back to the history books you go. After all, this all started when that Nazi al-Husseini tried to out-Hitler, Hitler.Oh, you might also want to read up on a little Muslim social club known as "Hamas." ;)
evanAnd can you do us all a HUGE favour by dropping the "Zionist" crap? How old are you? The state of Israel has existed for nearly 60 years now, so you can let go of the schoolyard taunts.
Neolefty,You seem to be good and not giving a damn about of lot of things. Perhaps yuo need to get with reality about who pays for all this Israeli largesse.The territories are not called occupied for nothing. Pull your head out fo your arse and explain to us why 64 UN resolutions remain unresolved.
Where do these Zionist nutters come from?They must breed them in Jewish schools and synagogues around the world.
addamI suggest YOU pull your head out of your ass. Who gives a damn about the UN General Assembly? And since when have the Arabs cared about the UN? The only times the Arabs pay attention to the UN is when it is accompanied by annual checks of billions of dollars from the civilized world.
Ladies and gentleman, I think we have yet another Arab-hater, with vast experience in the Middle East and a host of Muslim friends. And people wonder why the West is accused of arrogance...
Is there anything you DO give a damn about lefty? You are claming to make statements of fact, while discarding those that don't fit your spin. If Israel's claims and conduct are as watertight as you claim, then there would never have existed an international consensus that led to these agreements admonishing Israel.And please, give up the crap about Arabs expecting handouts, when Israel receives 7 times the annual aid from Israel that the whole continent of Africa receives. The second highest recipiuent being Egypt, who are basically being bribed to be nice to Israel.
antonyI do NOT "hate" Arabs. Yes, I am extremely wary of radical politicized Islam. I know very little about the middle east. I am merely debating with the knowledge I DO have.So far, on this blog, I have not been exposed to any knowledge or information that only "experts" would understand, so I will continue to debate. Kapiche?
Familiar tune right there: Anyone with an opposing view is an Arab-hater and unqualified to enter into discussion on any topic. Take a look over Loewenstein’s archives, he says that to just about everyone.
addamoAnd WHY does Israel require this money? It is because all of the surrounding Muslim societies have shown a total disregard for the lives of their own citizens, let alone "the Jews."Between 1948 and 1973, Arab leaders used military invasions as a means to become the Saladin of the 21st century and hopefully stop themselves being assassinated by their own people AND as a way of screwing land out of the Israelis AND billions out of the Russians and the US.Because the Arabs don't give a rats about their own people, any time that military weakness has been detected in Israel, the surrounding 3, 7, or NINE armies tries to "push the Jews into the sea."I agree, that the defence dollar distribution market in the middle east is diabolical, but Israel is only playing the rules set by those surrounding it.
What's the deal lefty? Did you suddenly wake up this mornig and deicide to have a anxiety attack in front of your keyboard? By all means, debate all you want, but consider significantly increasing your fibre intake.
Lefty,Israel playing by what rules exactly? Like the nice trick they played in 1967, when they tried to sink the USS Libery and killed 37 navy men in the process?What abot uthe Lavon Affair (aka Suzanna Project)? What rules were Israel playing by on that occasion?I admit Israel has had to take drastic measures for it's own survival, but for God's sake, drop the squeeky clean Israel can do not wrong crap.
addomoLet's get one thing straight here. I do not, and never have, argued that any party has a monopoly on virtue or evil. The whole saga has been awful, and desperate measures have been felt to be necessary by all parties at different times.But we simply cannot view this through a totally relativist lens. The only way we can do this, is to say "right, go for it, and give us a yell when you're all done and their's a winner."It is true, that Israel has managed to ally itself more closely with power. However, between 1930 and 1967 that certainly was not the case. And the case simply has not been made that just because Israel has succesfully been embraced by the power of the UNSC and the United States that this makes Israel illegitimate.But in 2005, if we are not prepared to say that Resolutions 242, 303, the agreements signed by Sadat, Abdullah, and the processes embarked upon since Oslo are not the guiding paths to justice, there is no hope for any justice, let alone peace or relief from misery.
Nice to have you back lefty. ;-)I agree with pretty much what you say. Mind you I do find it quite bizarre that cricism of Israeli policies are so often equated with a challenge to Israel's legitimacy. The legitimacy if Israel is beyond dispute, and I can't help but feel this is a straw man inventted to stifel the debate. I can't even remember if I have come across any such arguemtn, apart from those posed by the Jews Against Zionism momvement.
Debate: Noam Chomsky & Alan Dershowitz.Israel And Palestine After Disengagement: "Where Do We Go From Here?"http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11190.htm
addamoThe challenges to Israel's legitimacy do not come from mere criticism of Israel's policies. They come from the words, policies, and actions of every single miserable group of low-lifes who have purported to speak on behalf of the "Palestinian" people.The policies have been consistent from al-Husseini, Nasser, MAN, Fatah, Arafat, all of Syria's losers (if there has ever been a more loathsome "culture" that the world could do without, surely it must be Syria!), and now the Hamas nutjobs.What I can't believe is how blind and ignorant so many who claim to be merely "critcising Israeli 'policies' are to the reality that they are no more than gutter-dwelling anti-semitic scum.Truth hurts; but it will set you free.
I see, so once I atone by admitting to being gutter-dwelling anti-semitic scum, the universe will open up to me.OK. I admit it. Now what happens. When do I start to see the blue lights appear?
addamoDarl, the world doesn't revolve around you. I wasn't necessarily referring to you; I was making a general observation.
Fair enough.If my mother was still alive I would have reprimanded her for leading me to believe the bit abtou the world revolving aroudn me.The "Truth hurts; but it will set you free" line sounded liek a hint.
While I admire Lefty's zeal, and I understand her frustration, I would love for her to better articulate her position. Israel does not, in a legal sense, occupy what has come to be known as the West Bank and Gaza. They wrested it from the nations who were occupying those regions. However, Israel does occupy the Golan Heights. The Arab nations have done a tremendous damage in not allowing absorbtion of the Palestinian 'refugees' into their countries. Additionally, the UN, by creating these singular organizations devoted to the palestinians encourage continuing the problem to justify their existance. And the palestinians demands themselves guarentee no end to the struggle. Add that to the many antisemites in the world today and you will see why this problem will extend far past the next century.
Don't you miss the old days? Paul Neuman was on Exodus, making the dessert bloom, nobility of arms, tiny peace loving country surrounded by mean Arabs..... Ah the good old days.I suppose a few years from now and we'll be saying these were the good old days.
And you'll be providing as much misleading information as you do now.Back then, Jews were festering in Cyprus, and being murdered in Poland for daring to return from the camps.
ibrahamavHow can I please you by "better articulating" my position? I think my findings on these and related matters are quite clearly expressed.
You clearly express your 'feelings' in which I sympathize. And in reading those, and in rereading some of your posts on this thread, I may have been to hasty in my judgement (which was based on your comments on another thread, which one I can't recall)
Post a Comment