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Monday, November 14, 2005

Looking inside

There is a partner for peace, writes Akiva Eldar in Haaretz:

"A few days after Rabin's assassination, Shimon Peres invited the leaders of Meretz to discuss the guidelines of the government. The representatives of the left-wing party wanted the document being drafted to express support for the Palestinians' right to self-determination. None of them expected that, more than two years after the agreement regarding mutual recognition between the State of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, the architect of Oslo would have a problem making such a declaration. To their great surprise, Peres gave them a look full of reprimand. "Do you understand that this means a Palestinian state?" he asked. "Absolutely," replied the guests in unison. "And who told you that I'm in favour of a Palestinian state?" replied the prime minister offhandedly. "I believe in functional compromise."

Ten years after Rabin's assassination, we have an Israeli political leader [new Labor chairman Amir Peretz] who considers the occupation a moral, security and economic burden, a man who is in no need of internal or external pressure to leave the territories. Finally, peace has emerged from the back benches and returned to centre stage.

"Palestinian neighbours: You have a partner, don't let the fanatics harm him."

There has always been a partner in the Palestinians but the Zionists and Western media have convinced the public otherwise. Not anymore. People no longer believe Israel when it talks about a marauding Palestinian rabble. The Palestinian people have finally acquired a humanity that cannot be ignored. Israel, on the other hand, continues its immoral occupation.

Gaza, meanwhile, is in danger of becoming a "giant prison", according to
James Wolfensohn, the West's special envoy on post-disengagement Gaza. Israel's main benefactor, the USA, continues its disastrous occupation of Iraq. It's the blind clique leading the morally bankrupt. And Australia stands ready throughout it all to offer guidance and support. Brave, little, irrelevant Australia.

The myths are ending and Israel stands accused in the dock.


Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

"There has always been a partner in the Palestinians but the Zionists and Western media have convinced the public otherwise. Not anymore."

The questions now are:

(a) Will the Palestinian people believe it themselves? After 30 years of harsh rule by so many Israeli Administrations, suspicion runs deep.


(b) When the next random Palestinian suicide bomb and the next random Israeli missile attack comes, will both sides have the strength to press on with negotiations regardless? Unlike the recent hopeful, measured and intelligent reactions of Musharraf and Singh to bombings in Delhi, THIS is what has NEVER been tried in the history of the Palestinian Tragedy.

Monday, November 14, 2005 9:50:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

There has never been a partner on the Palestinian side. All of western civilization recognizes that.

Monday, November 14, 2005 10:16:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"All of western civilization recognizes that."

Oh c'mon my little anti-semite - surely you can come up with a bigger generalisation than that.

How about 'All of humanity since the beginning of time and until the end of the universe itself, and then beyond, recognises that'.

Monday, November 14, 2005 10:28:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No, I can't. Most of the Islamic world, mostly what would loosely be termed civilization, would have trouble recognizing it's own ass.

But they would have no trouble recognizing yours.

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:05:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

"The Palestinian people have finally acquired a humanity"

And what day was that on? Last Thursday?

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:24:00 am  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

Ibrahamav, I’m a lurker, sometimes poster to ant's site, but feel compelled to explain to you precisely why I disregard everything you write.

You are a bigot, and have nothing but contemptuous comments to make about Arabs. So when you start trying to label everyone else as a bigot, and deliberately choose not to recognise the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, you simply look like a fool, which is precisely why your comments are subsequently dismissed as the rantings of a racist.

If you are serious about anti-Semitism, why don’t you visit a site like, who regularly either celebrate or deny the holocaust, and actually believe in the ‘Jewish conspiracy’,

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:37:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

David Heidelberg said...
"You are a bigot, and have nothing but contemptuous comments to make about Arabs."

See Ibrahamav? People DO think you're an anti-semite. In fact, to quote a little-known anti-semite, "All of western civilization recognizes that."

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:19:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Eddie, do you actually think I'm concerned with heidelberg? A fool who thinks there is a difference between antizionism and antisemitism?

If he is Jewish, he is not Jewish in a religious sense. And, of course, he is 'compelled'.

Just another zealot trying to show his worth.

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:02:00 pm  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

Just another zealot trying to show his worth.

You sure are Ibrahamav.

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:50:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ah Ibrahim, foloowng Foxman's lead and deliberately confusing antizionism and antisemitism.

And all this time, I thought you understood what these words actually meant.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:29:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Oh, good one heidi, I didn't see it coming.

Deliberately? Nothing confusing about it. Of course, since your educational credentials vanished, perhaps you are confused.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:40:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Oh I see, so by your logic, all Jews are Zionists and all Zionists are Jews.

What a pitty your arguments are so easy to pull apart. Your lack of eduaction is really becomming a liability for you.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:33:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

No addamo, you do not see. All Jews, who identify themselves religiously as Jews, are Zionists.

As there are only 13 to 16 million Jews on earth, and over 100 million zionists, no one in their right mind would even suggest that all zionists are jews.

Precisely why you can suggest such.

Go to school. Learn something. Anything. Your bufoonery is too much. LMAO.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 2:28:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Zionism: Political and cultural movement calling for the return of the Jewish people to their Biblical home.

Zionism is a political and cultural movement. There are many Jews who identify themselves religiously as Jewsish, and yet who are anti-Zionist.

If there are only 13 to 16 million Jews on earth, and over 100 million zionists, how can anti-Zionism mean anti-semitism?

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 2:54:00 am  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

Ibrahamav said...
"No addamo, you do not see. All Jews, who identify themselves religiously as Jews, are Zionists."

Ibrahamav, you are as ignorant as you are ignorant. There is more than one meaning of Zionism. It is a contestable concept. No literate human being would place the Zionist Martin Buber in the same category as the Zionist David Ben-Gurion.

The original 19th century Zionism, which was BITTERLY OPPOSED BY MANY ORTHODOX AND ULTRA-ORTHODOX JEWS, was based on the following ideological propositions: All goyim, deep in their hearts, are anti-semites. Thus, Jews can never truly be safe living among them. Thus, a seperate, racially exclusive state is required for the Jews in order for them to be truly safe. It seemed to make a lot of sense at the time and was fairly understandable; although now we recognise it, when univeralised and de-historicised, to be paranoid and racist.

Fortunately, few believe that ideology now. History, thankfully, has proved that nasty, distinctly European ideology wrong (e.g. the safest place in the world for Jews today is, yes, Germany). The proof lies also in the Diaspora which, while supportive of the state of Israel, does not feel any real need to move to Israel in order to be 'safe'.

Unfortunately, and ironically, the least safe place in the world for Jews is the very place the early Zionists created for the expressed purpose of "being safe" - viz. Israel.

(I have always wondered how things would have turned out if Hertzl's first option - Argentina I think it was - were chosen instead of Palestine.)

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:39:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Addamo - So limited. Are you sure you graduated from elementary school.

Eddie - Almost as limited as Addamo. The earliest zionists had the return to zion as thier goal. The 19th century zionist, pre-Herzl. had the return to zion as their goal.

In the formation of a Formal Zionist society, as in any other democracy, alternatives were offered and weighed. All were found wanting except the return to zion.

And despite initial resistance, perservenrance and adherance to truth overcame all and Israel has been re-established.

Eddie, you may now delve back in your ass and attempt to retrieve another piece of shit.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:50:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

There he goes with that ass obsession thing again. Yes I did gradue from elementary school, but unliek the one you came from, weren't forced to wear brown shirts.

Limited in the definititon of zionism you say? I undertstand why you would think so. Why have a denitive meaning when you can constantly redefine the meniang to suit your position.

Eddie, I think this hostility is masking some kind of dsire. Maybe you should remove the photo from your sig tag.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 4:00:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

But you can't prove you did. And based on your comments, you're probably lying about your elementary education also.

Why have a definitive meaning? Or why, as you have demonstrated, have a screwed up meaning that defines your terms rather than zionism?

Hostility? Making fun of lames like you two is hostility?

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 4:25:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Avoiding a definitive meaning makes the definition open to interpretation and manipulation.

Ambiguity is the sanctuary of the fraud and those who aim to mislead.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 4:30:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

I haven't avoided a definitive meaning. Your meaning has very little to do with the definition of zionism.

So, you were attempting to be fraudulent? Misleading? And now you've been caught. And you even supplied the evidence!

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 5:14:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Is there a point to this?

Is there one meaning of Zionism or more than one?

Try nto to answer with a riddle this time.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 6:06:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

There is only one meaning. You didn't bring it to the table. You brought a small portion of one manifistation.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:51:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ibrahamav said...
"You brought a small portion of one manifistation."

Does not your reference to "one manifestation" as opposed to "the" manisfestation, not imply that there are other manifestations?

Please point me to the link that gives the definitive explanation of Zionism.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 9:48:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Zionism is the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims.

While the word "Zionism", like the word "antisemitism", was not coined until the 1800's, conceptional zionism has been a concrete goal since the 1st exile.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:00:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

OK, that makes sense.

So then, why is it that not all Jewish people (practising or otherwise), are united in their commitment to Zionism?

What does it say about Jews with this belief? The Jews Against Zionism movement seems to have some compelling arguments that Zionism is constrary to the teachings of the Torah.

From the web site:

Rabbi Shaul Brach
“Since the dawn of the Zionist movement, suffering has not ceased to exist in the world. All the warnings of the Torah have been fulfilled in their details among our People all over the world. For a believer it is no surprise that the Zionists are the same as the heretics at the time of the Destruction of the Temple. Thus, divine judgment has been unleashed on the entire world.”

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:09:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

All Jews, who identify themselves, religiously, as Jews, are united in the goals of Zionism. Even the NK's. They have arguments, but they are not compelling. An argument that sways less than 1/10 of a percent is not a compelling argument.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:04:00 am  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

No addamo, you do not see. All Jews, who identify themselves religiously as Jews, are Zionists.

You are a liar, and a liability. Ignorant fools like you do more to feed anti-Semitism than any Nazi. You don't speak for me you arrogant idiot.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:20:00 am  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

All Jews, who identify themselves, religiously, as Jews, are united in the goals of Zionism

I understand you more Ibrahamav. You've now exposed yourself as a fundamentalist. Like a Christian fundy, you demand strict literal adherence, and subsequently disregard the views of moderates. Very interesting, and gives further evidence about why your deranged polemic should be consigned to the intellectual trash heap. Like all fundys, you’re dangerous.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:43:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Heidi, Heidi, Heidi - Why so hot under the collar? Every single living breathing Jew, who identifies themselves, religiously, as Jews, is a Zionist.

That you believe otherwise doesn't make you a liar, it just means you have a belief based on ignorance.

And it is your ignorance that makes you dangerous, and allows your apinion to be dumped in the trash.

Do yourself a favor> Get an education. Learn about what you hope to talk about. Do it for you.

I could care less, it just makes it easier to ignore your opinion when it is obviously uneducated.

Myself, I demand nothing.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 12:36:00 pm  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

I could care less, it just makes it easier to ignore your opinion when it is obviously uneducated.

I couldn't have described you any better.

here are some links for you. Why don't you email everyone on the list, which includes many Rabbis, and tell them all that they are wrong and you are right.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:17:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You couldn't because you have severe limitations. The Rabbis involved in any particular anti-zionist activity have all been chastised by their superiors. Whether or not they obey halaka is up to them.

And the NK are pretty much ignored as you are.

There are many who were accidentally born to jewish parents who think they have an opinion on the matter that matters. But they don't.

Their sole connection with judaism, like yours, is to oppose it. You are not the first self-hating Jew. You will not be the last.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 2:08:00 pm  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

You present the weakest argument I have ever heard, Ibrahamav, which is basically - Being Jewish = Zionism, and any variation to this makes you a self hating Jew or an anti-Semite, because I say so.

That's how deep your argument is. You want something to be true, so you claim it as fact. You can't even justify your claims by citing passages in the Torah, because no such passages exist.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 3:59:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

You keep getting it wrong, no wonder you can't see how deep it is.

All Jews, who identify themselves religiously as Jews, are Zionists.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:23:00 pm  
Blogger David Heidelberg said...

All Jews, who identify themselves religiously as Jews, are Zionists.

Wrong again. You see you just can't help yourself. You're a politician, trying to define an ancient religion with 100 year old political rhetoric.

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:22:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

As Usual, I am right. I'll repeat it since it gotten through your thick head. All Jews, who identify themselves religiously as Jews, are Zionists.

And you haven't done a thing to prove it isn't so. Just deny, deny, deny, as most antisemites who claim some of their best friends are Jewish.

What is your definition of Torah?

Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:57:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...

A-oh, looks like Ibrahamav has walked in some of his own vomit again and can't get it off his shoes.

Yet again Ibrahamav you are asked to substantiate your claims.

1. Are you or are you not going to email everyone on the list that David Heidelberg has kindly provided, and chastise them for their theological and ethical failings? IF you DON'T do this, then we can assume that you simply don't have the courage of your convictions - that is, when it comes to real-life, you are a yellow-bellied coward, too spineless to stand up for what you believe. Ben-Gurion would dispise you.

2. Are you or are you not capable of supplying quotations from the Torah which clearly and unequivocally establish your claims about Zionism? (And in case you're wondering, I mean by "Torah", the following: Bereishith, Shemoth, Vayiqra, Bamidbar and Devarim. I don't mean the Talmud.) If you are too cowardly to do even this, then what should we make of your supposed religious fervour?
כְּגֶלְלוֹ, לָנֶצַח יֹאבֵד; רֹאָיו, יֹאמְרוּ אַיּוֹ.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 2:46:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Forunately eddie is so ignorant that he doesn't understand the question. please, eddie, let heidi answer the question and then I will be more than happy to refute his claim.

You have already admitted your antisemitic bent so there is truly no need to address this matter with you. Most Jews refer to the entirety of Judaic knowledge as "Torah". If Heidi is merely refering to what is commonly known as "The Five Book od Moses" as Torah, let him say it in his own words and time.

And the Rabbis associated with his list have been adequately chastised for their failings. If they choose to ignore God, it is not up to the rest of the Jews to force them to obey. That would be an Islamic thing to do. And we are not muslims.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:10:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Cowardly? Strange coming from you. But seeing your agenda, baiting is not beneath you.

And are you (not heidi who I assume must have dropped out when he realized that he was out of his league) asking for a bit of torah stating God's command to inhabit the land? Or are you asking for a statement regarding returning to the land after the first exile, which took place hundreds of years after the 5 book were written?

Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:01:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Hey Eddie, hear that? Ibraham talks to God too.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:11:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

It is clear that Addamo does not.

fairly soon you will have realized the implication of what you wrote and will attempt to erase it.

So that all will know what an diot we have to deal with in addamo, allow me to copy and paste it before Addamo erases it.

Addamo_01 said...
Hey Eddie, hear that? Ibraham talks to God too.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:11:50 AM

Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:32:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

No problem Ibraham.

I was of course, comparing you to that other world famous village idiot, Bush, who also thinks he talks to God. Though you strike me as being more of a Zionist David Koresh.

Only such a sick mind would have teh arrgoance and dellusions of grandeur to pass judgement over Jews who disagree with your definition of Zionism.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:12:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Pass judgement? God passes the kind of justice you refer to. You fault Bush because he talks to God?

You are so sick you can't even recognize your sickness.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:30:00 am  
Blogger Wombat said...

Ibrahamav said..." As Usual, I am right."

Mental delusion personified.

Remember Ibraham, it's the white pills in the blue bottle you need, not the blue pills in the white bottle. It's a certainty you won't be having sex with anyone in this lifetime, so you'll certainly not be needing the latter.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:55:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

8 comments ago addamo, you are truly a dinosaur. Come back next week when you think of something.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:23:00 pm  
Blogger Wombat said...

Remember Ibraham, not the blue pills.

Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:31:00 pm  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

Poor addamo, now he's talking to himself. How sad :(

Thursday, November 17, 2005 1:24:00 pm  
Blogger Edward Mariyani-Squire said...


Your answer to question 1 was "no", so you are a coward and you are everything that Ben-Gurion found most disgusting.

Your answer to question 2 was "no", which of course is just another way of you saying "I'm too incompetent".

And BTW, if you think the Torah is the "entirety of Judaic knowledge" then you are EVEN MORE ignorant than I thought. You ACTUALLY BELIEVE the Midrash is part of what is ORDINARILY called "the Torah"? (Yeah, that's right - run off to Wikipedia to look up what "Midrash" means.) G~d! You need to talk to a real-life Rabbi sometime (as opposed to imaginary special-friend Rabbi).

Now c'mon, repeat after me:

כְּגֶלְלוֹ, לָנֶצַח יֹאבֵד; רֹאָיו, יֹאמְרוּ אַיּוֹ.

Friday, November 18, 2005 1:27:00 am  
Blogger Ibrahamav said...

eddie, you seem to have left off the context and merely skimmed the post.

With your other limitations that makes your answers rather meaningless.

Try to read it again. Get help if you have trouble with the big words.

Friday, November 18, 2005 10:19:00 pm  

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