Regrettably, incitement and anti-Semitic pronouncements are common throughout the Arab world. Edward Said campaigned strongly about this insidious trend throughout his life. No less disturbing is Jewish hatred of Arabs and Palestinians, equally irrational and dangerous.
The following news item, only appearing in Hebrew, offers evidence of well-known Rabbis expressing racial vilification:
"A conference which took place yesterday against the establishment of a mixed Arab-Jewish school in Pat, Jerusalem saw harsh attacks made by well-known rabbis.
"The (ha-mekubal) Rabbi David Bazri said: 'The establishment of such a school is a foul, disgraceful deed. You can't mix pure and foul. They are a disease, a disaster, a devil. The Arabs are asses, and the question must be asked, why did God did not create them walking on their fours? The answer is that they need to build and wash. They have no place in our school'.
"His son, Rabbi Itzhak Bazri, also referred to the interpretation of Ishmaelites – people similar to donkeys, and said 'the Arabs are inferior. What do they want? To take our daughters. They say we are racists. Well, they are the evil, they are the cruel, they have the foulness of snakes. There's foul and there's pure, and they are foul'.
"In response to questions by 'Walla!', Rabbi Bazri said that he meant to emphasize the difference between Arab and Jewish culture, and that there is no common denominator that can bring us together. Bazri went on to say that 'our experience is to prevent situations in which our Jewish girls be hurt by Arabs and to prevent danger to Jewish lives. We intend to demonstrate in front of the City Hall and to do everything we can to prevent this initiative'.
Rabbi Yehuda Der'i, brother to Arie Deri and Chief Rabbi of Ber Sheva, also participated in the conference and said that 'this is a thing that the Jewish mind, logic and soul cannot tolerate. We have to go from house to house and raise supporters in the neighbourhood to prevent this horrid punishment.'
"Today the school is running in a temporary building and is looking for a permanent residence in the Pat neighbourhood of Jerusalem. The municipality assigned a territory for the school but because of repeating appeals to court the process is delayed. Today the matter is scheduled for a debate in the High Court."
When Arab clerics preach hatred, they are rightly condemned. There is a telling silence when Jews do likewise.
The following news item, only appearing in Hebrew, offers evidence of well-known Rabbis expressing racial vilification:
"A conference which took place yesterday against the establishment of a mixed Arab-Jewish school in Pat, Jerusalem saw harsh attacks made by well-known rabbis.
"The (ha-mekubal) Rabbi David Bazri said: 'The establishment of such a school is a foul, disgraceful deed. You can't mix pure and foul. They are a disease, a disaster, a devil. The Arabs are asses, and the question must be asked, why did God did not create them walking on their fours? The answer is that they need to build and wash. They have no place in our school'.
"His son, Rabbi Itzhak Bazri, also referred to the interpretation of Ishmaelites – people similar to donkeys, and said 'the Arabs are inferior. What do they want? To take our daughters. They say we are racists. Well, they are the evil, they are the cruel, they have the foulness of snakes. There's foul and there's pure, and they are foul'.
"In response to questions by 'Walla!', Rabbi Bazri said that he meant to emphasize the difference between Arab and Jewish culture, and that there is no common denominator that can bring us together. Bazri went on to say that 'our experience is to prevent situations in which our Jewish girls be hurt by Arabs and to prevent danger to Jewish lives. We intend to demonstrate in front of the City Hall and to do everything we can to prevent this initiative'.
Rabbi Yehuda Der'i, brother to Arie Deri and Chief Rabbi of Ber Sheva, also participated in the conference and said that 'this is a thing that the Jewish mind, logic and soul cannot tolerate. We have to go from house to house and raise supporters in the neighbourhood to prevent this horrid punishment.'
"Today the school is running in a temporary building and is looking for a permanent residence in the Pat neighbourhood of Jerusalem. The municipality assigned a territory for the school but because of repeating appeals to court the process is delayed. Today the matter is scheduled for a debate in the High Court."
When Arab clerics preach hatred, they are rightly condemned. There is a telling silence when Jews do likewise.
36 Comments:
It is not a crime to riddle a dead body with bullets. It is stupid, insensitive, useless and demeaning.
But it is not a crime.
She did not die from the arab pouring bullets into her a close range. She was already dead.
Yes, only the palestinians are deliberately committing wicked crimes as a matter of policy.
The FBI following someone does not make them relevant nor current. Bankrobbers, kidnappers, murderers and suicide bombers are neither current nor relevant.
Seems you missed the point. No comment on the suicide?
As one of the oldest religions, Judaism continues to ask questions.
It is clear that you do not have the answer.
Actually you should start your posts "As an antisemite, I feel..." and that way the newcomers would be aware prior to your 3rd or 4th post on the subject.
And it isn't very interesting.
At the end of the day, it appears that the Palestinian suicide bomber is fully supported by the Palestinian people.
If you are not receptive, it is merely an indication of early brainwashing by antisemites like your host, eddie.
Whether or not mannie is sure of anything isn't important. After all, he is becoming senile.
It is big of me, isn't it.
Newie? Not so. It has already been disclosed that he resides up your ass.
When have you stopped pretending? regardless, I don't play with antisemites. For some reason, they always wound up running home to their mothers.
It may not, by legal definition, be a 'crime' to pump bullets into the body of someone who is already dead but it is surely a crime against humanity, a crime against decency, a crime against morality and a terrible blight upon the mind and soul of the person committing the act.
I suspect, in Australia, to shoot bullets into a body would be a crime.... Israel's tragedy is that the culture has become so debased by the wrongs of occupation and colonisation that people have come to accept the unacceptable, deny the evil and defend the indefensible.
Those who seek to 'support' Israel in this way are in fact her greatest enemies.
Any hope of a future as a respected nation lies in those who are prepared to stand up and speak out against such appalling atrocities: the dissenting IDF reservists, the people of conscience and honour who make up Israeli peace and human rights groups, and anyone who is prepared to risk hatemail and villification to speak the truth about what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.
As to fanatical religious Jews spewing ignorant and bigoted hatred toward Arabs, it is a reminder that anti-semitism is a human condition and exists on both sides.
It is also a reminder that religion, sadly, is often an excuse for ignorance and prejudice. Judaism may well question but those who practice the faith in an orthodox manner are not free to 'change.' They can ask questions and they can debate, but they remain as firmly entrenched in their religious prison as do fundamentalists of Muslim, Christian and Hindu religions.
In many ways it is a pity that fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Moslems cannot be settled somewhere together for they have so much more in common with each other than they do with other less fanatical members of their societies.
It is important as well to remember that people who are so filled with hate toward others... are also filled with fear. The trouble with fundamentalist religions, of all kinds, is that they create fear and a sense of being divided from others .... enemies are required if one is to rationalise the fear.
People, all people, even those who spew hatred are more ignorant than evil and more damaged than cruel.
Just as Israelis need to see the humanity in Palestinians and Palestinians need to see the humanity in Israelis, each also need to see the humanity in those of their own societies who are filled with hatred sourced in fear.
Love thine enemy and turn the other cheek are words as wise today as when they were first written down by the ancient Egyptians. They may have been attributed to Jesus but it is advice which runs deep and far in the ancient veins of human beings.
rhr, if it is not a crime, it is not a crime. End of story. What don't you get? Can't stand the hard facts?
Don't suspect, find out! It seems that most of your knowledge' is of the 'I Suspect' genre.
Religious fanatics do not rule Israel. But they do appear to be the guiding light of most arab nations. Therein lies the difference.
Turn the other cheek is as moronic as you are, in this situation. You want to die? Commit suicide. But don't ask us to.
Poor _01, when he loses the debate, he starts making up things.
Nimrod is right, the typical Palestinian seems to have no regard for Human life. There are many documents supporting the fact that some Palestinian mothers totally disregard the lievs of their children. In fact, they want their children to die.
Go figure. No wonder there is so much addamo regarding palestinians and human rights.
ibrahamav
No parent wants their child to die. People may hold beliefs that make it something that they can countenance but no parent actively wants their child to die.
Palestinian parents may comfort themselves with the death of a child by thinking that at least they have gone to a better world.
In the same way Israeli parents who choose to live in illegal settlements comfort themselves that if their children die because of the risk they have chosen to take, it is in a worthy cause.
Neither parent wishes the death of the child but each has found ways to rationalise it should it happen.
Those who seek to demonise an entire people, as you do, reflect your own ignorance and bigotry, not to mention fear and denial, rather than any sort of rational argument.
All human beings, regardless of race, creed or sex experience the same desires and feelings. All are capable of great good and all are capable of great evil.
Evil happens more easily when people live in denial or demonise.
I am struck by the fact that you cannot see the irony in how often your statements mimic, almost word for word, the sorts of things that Germans said about Jews.
Don't you think that your position is the most terrible betrayal of Jews who died because others held similar beliefs about them?
Any dysfunction reflected in Palestinian society must be understood in light of their dispossession and brutal occupation. No, it doesn't make the violence right but it does explain why it exists.
It is harder to explain Israeli violence although one can understand it in light of the dysfunctional thinking that is so much a part of the religion and the culture.
Anyone who commits any act of violence is to be pitied and hopefully understood.
Even while condemning Israeli acts of violence and aggression, and the Palestinian violence which comes in response, it is important to seek to understand and to respond with compassion.
Condemn the act, not the individual. Seek to understand why the act was committed.
It is the only way that any sort of lasting resolution can take place. But then, lasting resolution would mean you would have to take off your mantle of self-righteous victimhood.
Reality is fuelled by a chilly wind but it is a wind which blows away fantasy, deception and irrational fears.
01, you certainly made that up. Lying about it doesn't help your cause.
addamo,
Yes, I have also read that most Israelis would return to original borders and let go of settlements if they were to have real peace.
One of the difficulties however is that the level of ignorance in Israeli society is very high. So too is the level of racism and bigotry, things which suck noisily at the trough of ignorance.
Yes, they say they would give up the settlements but they have been told for so long that there can never be true peace without complete destruction of the palestinians that they do not believe it can happen.
Also, the level of racism is high in Israel in general and not only toward Palestinians. Israel in many ways is a divided society, and not just between religious and secular, but between white Israelis and black Israelis, new Israelis and those who have lived there longer.
The greatest bigotry is aimed at Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular and because so few Israelis have been to Palestine, even when it was possible, they really have no idea.
When I was there a few years ago Israelis would talk about how filthy Palestinians were and yet we drove through spotlessly clean Palestinian villages while the roads out of Tel Aviv were lined with litter and the beaches were filthy. People believed they were cleaner than Arabs and I guess, given the Third World levels of litter in Israel, that meant they believed the Palestinians were unspeakably filthy. Because they had not been to Palestine they had no way of knowing they were wrong.
And so while one would like to be heartened when Israelis say they would give up the settlements for peace I doubt that it would happen without it being imposed upon them.
The level of ignorance is just too great. The level of denial is even greater. Interestingly Palestinians probably know more about Israel because so many worked there in the years before the latest intifada.
Palestians hate Israelis, but not because they consider them to be inferior, they hate them because they are occupiers and colonisers.
Israelis merely hate Palestinians because they believe they are inferior and also because they exist. The fly in the ointment of Israel is the existence of the people who lived there before the state was created.
One can only wish that ultimately the Palestinian 'irritation' creates a pearl.
violet
Sharon was not charged for not foreseeing the Sabra and Shatila massacres, he was charged for inciting it.
Sharon told the falangists that the Palestinians had been responsible for the murder of one of their leaders ...it was proven to be a lie ...knowing that they would take revenge.
When the slaughter began Sharon knew about it but refused to intervene. He kept his troops away while the massacre happened.
He was rightly charged, and rightly found to be a war criminal.
Then again, given that Israel's first prime minister had been actively involved in terrorism .... yes, the zionists used terrorist tactics to establish the State of Israel .... and yes, they killed civilians ... similar tactics to the Palestinians who are trying to establish their State.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighters.
Why are suicide bombers regarded as martyrs? They are not per se: They are by Muslims who believe that to die in such a way is a blessing, but they are not by Christian and non-Muslim Palestinians nor anyone else.
In addition the suicide bombers are not members of a State army but resistance fighters, operating, if you like, beyond control.
Why are Israeli soldiers charged?
Because Israel purports to be a functioning democracy with a State military which is accountable. Because Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention and because it has a legal system where such charges are possible. Any nation is responsible for the actions of its Army. Nations that purport to abide by international rules pertaining to human rights and acceptable behaviour are even more accountable. Israel is such a nation.
Israel has a highly educated society, yet rhr thinks that the level of ignorance in Israeli society is very high.
Could it be that rhr has been smoking dope? Or has he fed at the trough of reasonable antisemites like eddie?
By the way, could you provide the link that showed Sharon being found guilty of inciting the slaughter at Sabra?
Also the conviction of Sharon as a war criminal?
Or are you lying as much as your mate, _01? Are you also residing in eddie's ass?
Read more carefully ibrahamav.
I said Sharon had been charged. I did not say he had been convicted although in the year following the massacres Sharon was found guilty of 'personal responsibility' for the massacres by the Kahan Commission.
The Commission did not accept that Israel had direct responsiblity but admitted to indirect responsibility involving Sharon and seven others, including the Prime Minister of the time Menachem Begin.
In 2001 he was charged with war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity in a Belgian court. The suit is proceeding.
Insults and and name-calling make you look bad, not me. They also reflect a level of immaturity on your part and a lack of argument.
addamo
Quite right. The level of education in a society does not necessarily reflect a high level of knowledge.
In the case of both America and Israel there are high levels of official and non-official censorship in regard to the Palestinian situation.
Americans don't really care and Israelis don't want to know. Hence the disinformation and lack of information is compounded by disinterest in one instance and denial on the other. Both dangerous.
The trouble with denial is that ultimately it will destroy you because those who are prepared to investigate and assess all of the facts will be in a more powerful position in terms of bringing about change.
Simple test for our Likudnik brethren: defend the comments of those rabbis. Go on. If you can't, you will have to... condemn them. It won't hurt a bit, promise. You might even feel a bit cleaner.
The rabbi that buried Baruch Goldstein (who has a state-approved shrine to his memory which is visited daily by families of settlers) stated that '1000 Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail'. Once you've finished with the others, have a pop at that one.
Let's for once desist with the tedious diversions and comparisons; confront this evil directly and either support or condemn it. That means you ibrahamav.
glenn, well said.
Sadly most of Israel's supporters do not have the integrity to condemn evil when they see it. Condemning such appalling outbursts does not diminish one's position as a supporter of Israel, it strengthens it because it shows that there is some sort of reasoned intelligence at work.
Name-calling, insults and abuse seem to be the weapons of choice for Israel's supporters and, as others have said, ibrahamav is no supporter any Israeli would wish to have.
One could in fact suspect, as others have said, that he or she is just the opposite.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
So ross just lied some more and hoped he could get away with it? For shame.
Sorry that he lied. We don't ask you because of what you are. There is a hope that ross is human.
RHRoss said...
In 2001 he was charged with war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity in a Belgian court. The suit is proceeding.
That is a lie, no suit is proceeding. Regardless, the charge was not correct because it is not what Sharon did.
Jeez, the sayanim are working overtime right now aren't they? ('now, where did I put those talking points')
You can almost admire the dedication. Almost.
mea culpa. I was sloppy. I should have been more specific and will make sure I am in the future.
Yes, the Belgian move to indict Sharon was withdrawn following US pressure.... they were being very naughty and looking to charge George W with war crimes too.
This is not to say Sharon was exonerated. He was not.
It is also not to say that the charges may not be re-activated.
And, moves to indict Sharon for war crimes do still proceed but at the instigation of Human Rights Groups and groups involved with international law.
The point remains that the evidence is there that Sharon could and should be tried for war crimes.
And the point I made about the Kahan Commission was that he was found to be 'personally responsibility.' That point remains, whatever other points can be made.
But that does not negate my sloppiness. So, as I said, mea culpa. Another reminder that typing fast is not always a plus.
At the end of the day Sharon's record is not the issue .... the fact is that Israel's first prime minister had a record as a terrorist....
the issue is, and remains, not the quality of Israel's leaders per se" except in terms of how it impacts on the resolution of the problem, or rather the lack of resolution.
Who Israelis choose to lead them is their business. What those leaders do to others is anyone else's business.
Sharon's record in terms of settlement building and continued colonisation of Palestine and the atrocities committed against the Palestinians are more important. History will judge him for those even if he does not appear in an international court of justice for literal war crimes.
And I would add, whatever Sharon's record I would either wish him a complete recovery or a speedy death. To wish suffering upon him is to lower yourself to his level Orang. Plus, if you have ever known anyone who had a major stroke you would not wish 50 years of suffering on him.
Whatever crimes he committed he did so because he believed they were things he had to do. That does not make them right. He, like so many was and is a damaged individual and his acts of cruelty have arisen out of fear, not a desire to simply be cruel.
Sharon should be judged for his actions and held accountable for them but he is also deserving of compassion.
You wish you could rise to the level of a Sharon. But you will always be found wanting.
You weren't sloppy, you were just so full of shit.
Violet,
Accusations made against Sharon in regard to war crimes have nothing whatsoever to do with him being Jewish. They have to do with the crimes committed.
Slobodan Milosevic has been charged with war crimes.... some believe with less of a case than that against Sharon.,.. he is not Jewish. It is not about being Jewish.
When the case comes to a court the actions of the Lebanese militia will come into it and those responsible will be held to account.
Why Sharon? Because the topic here is Israel and the way it acts in the world and the way its leaders act. Also, because it was Sharon who held power at the time to incite and encourage such acts of murder or to calm and discourage them. The evidence suggests he chose the former.
As the one with all the power, he holds greatest responsibility. It's a fact of life that the buck stops somewhere and it stops with the people in power.
For example, Israel will always be called to account more than Palestine while it remains an occupier. As an occupier it has a capacity to control things that the occupied do not have.
Israel if you like is free to do whatever it chooses whereas the Palestinians are not. Ergo: the greatest power lies with the Israelis. Therefore, those with the greatest power have the greatest responsibility.
That's why our governments are held to account. We give them power and they exercise power. If they exercise power badly they must answer for it.
Palestinians, as an occupied people, do not have the freedom to pursue justice and human rights as do Israelis. They have no functioning legal system, no functioning governmental system, and, as an occupied people are completely dependent upon their occupier, Israel, in terms of what they can and cannot do.
The reality is that if this matter were taken to the Hague all of those responsible would be charged and called to account. It would not be Sharon alone.
I agree with you that everyone involved should be held responsible. I only hope that one day they will be.
He is more than misguided.
violet
your bigotry reflects on you and no-one else, least of all Palestinians.
Let me get this right though, what you are suggesting is that somehow Israelis are culturally superior to Palestinians?
Isn't that what Germans said about Jews and look where that got them?
Or is it bigotry against Muslims?
Honour killings, gang rape and incest are present in many societies.... sadly ... quite common in Africa and they are not necessarily Muslim. Would you believe, also, sadly, extremely common in India ... among Hindus as well as Muslims.
Rape, honour killings and incest, wherever they exist, do so because of flawed cultural and religious values.
Those in free democracies have a greater ability to move beyond these values, those in non-democratic societies do not.
Those who live under occupation have even less freedom to bring about any sort of change. All power lies with the occupier, ie Israel.
Those who live under brutal and repressive occupation, as do the palestinians, are going to experience much higher levels of social dysfunction .... courtesy of their aggressors, in this instance, Israel.
Not only do Palestinians, the few who may commit such acts, not have freedom to act, their lives are brutalised in such a way that any existing dysfunction will be magnified.
One can of course, as you know, find rapes, murder, incest in Israeli society ... secular and religious, but of course, your point is to try to say Israelis are somehow superior and Palestinians inferior so you do not want to go there.
Here's a reality for you. It may be shocking but here it is.
Jews and Israelis are guess what? Only as good as other human beings, not better.
And, not only that, they are as bad as other human beings, not worse.
Surprise surprise, Israelis and Jews are as good as the best of us and as bad as the worst.
In terms of a functioning democracy Israel is performing way under par and more like a backward, tyranny than a free and liberal society.
But, just as I would make some allowance for the dysfunction in Palestinian society because it is occupied, so I make allowance for the dysfunction in Israeli society because it is an occupier.
Aggression diminishes people; violence debases; occupation both diminishes and debases.
Israelis have also had to deal with the paranoid dysfunction that is so much a part of Judaism and their cultural heritage and which Jews who do not have the courage to live in Israel continue to impose upon them.
No people living under repressive occupation have the same freedoms as those living in freedom. Even you should be able to grasp that simple logic despite your bigotry.
violet
in terms of human rights abuses against women we have something in common.
In terms of this being peculiarly Muslim or Arabic we disagree.
It isn't. These dysfunctional cultural attitudes are found in many places throughout Africa (non muslim) and, as I said, in India, amongst Hindus.
Hindus grieve at the birth of a daughter; women are killed every day in India and raped and the perpetrator rarely gets convicted even if charged. A woman who is raped in Hindu society is considered to be responsible.
My point remains, these are not Islamic nor Arab values but patriarchal values which history shows, existed to varying degrees in European society.
And you also miss the point, perpetrators of such acts can be caught and punished in democratic societies in a way that they cannot in non-democratic societies which is what most Arab nations are.
India, shamefully, is one democratic society where the appalling treatment of women and the murder of female babies, goes on without halt.
When I was living in India in the 90's a woman an hour was burned to death in Gujarat; a woman a day in Delhi. One hopes these figures have improved.
Young girls are given away in marriage; girls as young as seven are 'sold' into prostitution.
It's not about religion, it is about patriarchy at its worst.
These are backward cultural values and to that degree reflect inferior elements in the societies.... but it does not make the people themselves inferior in any way. Particularly as I said when they do not have the freedom to become other.
You might also have a look at the mysoginistic practices of Judaism, which, like Islam and fundamentalist christianity, represses women and abuses them in emotional and psychological ways, if not physical.
By all means condemn the abuse of women but do not try to make it a particularly Muslim or Arab condition.
You diminish the power of your case when you cite such practices as being a sign of inferiority in people you clearly hate.
violet
Yes, I have been to Israel and to Palestine. I have also read a lot.
Anthony is important because he, like those Israelis who fight for human rights and justice for Palestinians are the people who will ultimately save Israel.
Speaking the truth about what is happening is the only way that things will be righted.
Do I agree with everything Anthony says? No, but I defend his right to say it. Just as I defend yours.
I would put more credence on your argument and that of ibrahamav if you did not become so abusive and reveal such deep levels of bigotry and racism.
But I can understand that you care and are emotionally involved in what happens and this clearly diminishes reason.
Unfortunately, with such a position you do Israel no favours.
Reason, being reasonable and being fair, balanced and compassionate towards both sides is what is needed.
I score it to rhoss about 76-0. Impressive heavy lifting, but probably not worth the effort.
Antony will not save Israel. He does Israel no favors.
You have already shown that you are neither versed on the situation, and what little you do know is out of date. One can only imagine what sources you use for information.
As the Palestinian side has never been reasonable, fair, balanced or compassionate, the Israelis have decided that there is no reason for them to be either.
ibrahamav
You are forgetting the core point: Israel occupies the Palestinians, not vice versa.
The Palestinians while they remain under occupation are the victims. That's v-i-c-t-i-m. No way out of it. Fact of life.
Your comments would have some weight if Palestinians lived in freedom.
Israel, as the occupier, carries the can. Always will.
You keep forgetting that the palestinian's have acted in the same way from 1948 through 1967, when the land they occupied was not controlled by Israel.
The Palestinians have been occupied since 48 because Israel has never dealt with the wrongs of its foundation.
Yes, I know you don't see it as a wrong but they did.
Palestinians were dispossessed. Their homes were taken. Many were killed. They fought back against that as would most people.
Until Israel acknowledges the wrongs of its foundation and makes redress as other modern colonisers have had to do not only will it not have moral legality, it will not be at peace with itself or the Palestinians.
It is a fantasy to believe that Israel was established peacefully on land legally purchased or land on which no-one lived. It is this great lie which has made the issue impossible to resolve.
Israel came into existence through the theft of Palestinian land.... sure, with the approval of the international community but that does not make it right.
The international community approved the invasions and colonisation of the Americas, Australia and Africa ... but it did not make it right. As we now know. Those nations have had to accept the wrongs of their foundation and make redress. So must Israel.
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