Incredibly poor taste. Is it impossible to cherish your heritage and fiercely defend your adopted home?
As you are not a noted figure, this post will not ruin your career, but don't go into politics. Unless your going as a leader of one of those fascists, isloationist ones.
I saw the cartoon in yesterday's newspaper, but still don't understand the point. Last time I looked we have not been "over run" by Asians, if that's what the cartoon was intended to suggest. The majority of immigrants to Australia still come from Britain and Europe. No-one would "get" this cartoon if it showed lots of British people either.
The only reading of it, therefore, is some obscure racist comment.
Racist? Bill Leak is about as racist as Bob Brown. ie. not at all. You poor people can't understand the cartoon? I'm a racist? The howls and screams from the usual people is hilarious. Take another look. And spare the faux outrage.
People. I can't say for sure what Leak had in mind...but i presume it's to do with outsourcing jobs (in the Murdoch rag last week): http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16986977%5E601,00.html How this is racist is beyond me. It's a comment on a very touchy subject. I have other interpretations - including the ever-increasing removal of jobs to other parts of Asia - but Leak, like much of his wonderful work, is both provocative and timely. End of story. And, posting a cartoon isn't actually the same as drawing it. Rather large distinction, but that's just me. I like Leak, I liked the cartoon.
Antony, you posted a picture of Asians which did nothing more than make fun of a typical Asian stereotype - 'they're happy little people who can't pronounce stuff correctly'!
You provided no explanation, no context, no nothing, but gave it space on your blog.
Perhaps you'd care to explain how endorsing a stereotype in this way is not racist?
The fact that the cartoon people are Asian is just a piece of misdirection. Ergo, it's not racist at all.
Pay attention people and understand the nuances. The fact that the cherry blossoms are pink is obviously a reference to the feminine side and the people in the blue jump suits refers to the masculine.
The Pagodas and Mt Fuji are, for anyone to see phallic.
The message of the cartoon is "Men and women should have sex at home".
You know what's the most telling, Ant? All your usual suspects who rush in to take bullets for you when you post something silly are strangely absent on this thread. This post of yours is so on the nose that even they won't touch it. Here's a hint, Antony - this shit is not okay and has overtly racist overtones to it. A spectacular own goal, I feel.
It's just bemusing watching you all fume. Own goal? I'll take that advice. Off to the gulag for me. Perhaps taking issue with Leak would be more appropriate - I didn't draw it - but why bother with that? Ho hum. Good night.
4.43 in the afternoon and you are saying good night? It's boring you now, isn't it? The only amusing thing here is your pathetic defence of artistic drivel.
Here's the thing, Ant. First you claim it's not a racist cartoon. Funny - everyone else seems to think it is. Suddenly, it seems as though you took some of your own medicine and have a good look at the cartoon. And - it's the darnedest thing - you start backing away from it and claiming ignorance of its meaning. If I was a betting man, I'd place a wee wager on the fact that the penny finally dropped for you. But you're not big enough to admit your breathtaking lapse of common sense - you still claim to like the cartoon, even though you continue the charade about not knowing what it's about.
Antony, don't you don't think disseminating racist work approvingly is blameworthy?
Obviously your regular allies do - they're nowhere to be seen on this thread.
Shab - agree broadly with the thrust of Antony's dilemma that you highlighted. He is certainly caught between the scylla of overwhelming and convincing criticism - but at least notoriety - and the charybdis of irrelevance and thus oblivion.
However, the devil is in the details. You said
even though it is running out of gas intellectually
Was the intellectual car ever gassed up or even pushed out of the garage down to the petrol station? I haven't seen Antony post anything outside of the acceptable, well-established, trendy left wing thought-agenda. Has he ever had an original thought about anything?
Cheap thrills? Hardly. The intellectual and reputational swan dive Antony just took is quite the spectacle. A word of advice, though, DBO - if I were you, I wouldn't start fighting in Loewenstein's corner on this one - as many of your allies on this blog have realised and consequently stayed well away. The kind of mud that Ant has immersed himself in over this cartoon sticks, and I shouldn't think you'd like to wear it.
As for your defence of Leak, what do you think the cartoon's about? Why do you think it's not racist? Surely its most obvious interpretation is indeed racist?
I've had a busy weekend. The 'storm' over my publishing of this cartoon is instructive in many ways. But, I can do little more than express my thoughts, place my ideas about it on the record:
The cartoon defines Australia · We have a fear of losing our national identity (an identity we have great difficulty agreeing on or articulating). · The cartoon is a glowing example of the way we simplify debate into racial stereotypes - something the Australian and Tim Blair are famous for. · We deal with issues of the Other in a similar way. (have a look at the way issues in the middle east are parodied in cartoon form) · I reproduced the cartoon here because debate about it is important. · I think the cartoon is more a reflection on Australia and the way we view the Other, rather than a commentary on the Japanese themselves. As such it defines Australia and in the process makes sad and cruel use of stereotypical Japanese identity. · Motivation is essential part of adjudicating issues of racism. I published a contentious illustration with discussion in mind, not approval or sanction. It is worthwhile noting that I often publish contentious information/artwork on my blog. In this case, I recognise that it would have been prudent to hold the hands of Tim Blair readers and include my opinion as a guide. · I take severe exception to being labelled a racist.
Maybe this cartoon defines YOUR Australia Ant but leave the sane people out of it.
I might be slow but I still don't understand how you got so much "meaning" out of a simplistic and overtly racist cartoon. Although, if "understanding" involves becoming like you, I'll stay ignorant thanks.
Watching this from the sidelines has been hilarious. I know no-one reads or comments here anyway (except the Blairites when you stuff up) but have you noticed the absolute lack of support from your supposed mates? Where's crazy Marilyn when you need her? Methinks you are now considered a liability.
If only backpedalling was an olympic sport...
More strength to you. John Howard appreciates your help.
A busy weekend hey? Obviously not at lunch time Sunday, when you had enough time to post two other articles. Absolutely swamped. Flat out like a lizard drinking. All this attention from your avowed political opposites is stroking your ego to such a point where you have to make long-winded explanations and apologies for a stupid political cartoon.
Oh my god! And, like, you didn't even quote your source, Antony--and, like I bet you don't even give to charities... or recycle, or, like... scrape the black stuff off the toast when it's burned.
Lay off a bit guys! The REAL purpose of blogging is the pursuit of free, democratic speech.
Racism is stating preference for one race over another. Simply stating that Japanese people replace Ls with Rs (which is the only point I can see the cartoon making), is probably a fairly accurate generalisation. As for the Japanese setting, well the Japanese people I know who went to school and go to uni in Australia, and who mix up their Ls with Rs in fact still call Japan home.
Racism would be a concern if the accompanying headline read something like "Illiterate Japanese Sell Out to their Own National Heritage".
And anyway, shoudln't you all be complaining to the editor of the paper, or Bill Leak himself?
DBO - true, we are all over it. And rightfully so.
Also notice how there's no one (bar yourself; 10/10 for loyalty, 0/10 for common sense) from the leftist blogosphere leaping to Ant's defence - which is a first. Can't say I blame them, however. If nothing else, they know a train wreck when they see one.
1) First, the obvious--the commentors post reasonable reactions based on a viewing of the cartoon. They may be right or wrong (and they recognize this), but they are not without justification.
2) Ant responds by saying, essentially, "you're all a bunch of doody-heads posting in bad faith."
3) Commentors say "huh?"
4) Ant gives a justification of the cartoon based not on anything in the cartoon, but based on his own world view, which includes giving the cartoonist the full benefit of the doubt on every issue, despite admittedly not knowing the cartoonist's intent.
So that's what Ant's attitude is all about--mindlessly defending his own. Does anybody here--Ant, DBO, or anyone else--doubt for a moment that if this exact cartoon was published by someone Ant didn't feel was in his own camp, Ant would be first and loudest among those screaming "racist!"? Never mind the fact that his actual knowledge of the underlying intent would be identical.
I ignored the origin and intent of the commenters on purpose. First because I don't know it and second because it's irrelevant. It has no bearing on the quality of their observations and arguments.
How I got here is irrelevant as well. For the same reason.
Maybe if you'd read what these people are saying and then think about how you feel about what they wrote, instead of the other way around (which is what you've obviously been doing), you'd learn something.
While your remarks on my final question are non-responsive (as is virtually all of what you've written), I take it you do doubt it.
DBO, I sometimes find it difficult to know when you are being serious and when your are taking the piss because your not real good at either. You want to see ranting, screaming etc? Follow the link in Wilbournes comment above you goose. Then take a quick trip to Ants mate Margo Kingstons looney tunes site for stage 2. Check out the SEIVX thread especially. It's a beauty. Then come back & talk to me about raving, screaming looneys. Calm and restrained my bum! Your mob wins the screeching contests hands down buddy.
Go back to the top of this thread and re-read it. You can actually "hear" the moment when Ant realised that his cover was blown and he'd made a right royal cock up in front of the whole class. A classic moment in blogging. It will be like that whole "Where were you when Kennedy was shot?" thing. Where were you when Ants pants fell down? I feel priviledged to have witnessed it first hand.
Gee, you've gone to the insult cupboard early. Is that all you've got left? No more witty reparte? Some people are sprinters, some are stayers I suppose.
Ah-so, me so solly for inferring you were part of a "mob". I should have realised that you were, as all adolescents proclaim, an individual!
Why I no risten? Me iriot, so solly!
My hand was under the desk but as soon as I saw Ants picture I got a soft-on. Don't worry though, yours will eventually get big enough to play with by yourself.
It's funny when kiddies try to sound all grown up. Thanks, you've brought a smile to my face.
By the way, where were you when Ants pants fell down?
39 Comments:
My thoughts exactly. Wtf is your profound observation here, Antony?
Incredibly poor taste. Is it impossible to cherish your heritage and fiercely defend your adopted home?
As you are not a noted figure, this post will not ruin your career, but don't go into politics. Unless your going as a leader of one of those fascists, isloationist ones.
Bad show.
Here's what Loewenstein had to say a few posts down :
Antony Loewenstein said...
Shab's guide to the world, bigotry part one. Must be so confronting taking on 'evil' like that?
Joker...
Monday, October 17, 2005 9:44:38 AM
Um...pot, kettle, black.
It is a shame that a reputed reporter of 'fact' is too quick in his attempt to scoop the legitimate blogs.
So sad.
I saw the cartoon in yesterday's newspaper, but still don't understand the point. Last time I looked we have not been "over run" by Asians, if that's what the cartoon was intended to suggest. The majority of immigrants to Australia still come from Britain and Europe. No-one would "get" this cartoon if it showed lots of British people either.
The only reading of it, therefore, is some obscure racist comment.
Racist? Bill Leak is about as racist as Bob Brown. ie. not at all.
You poor people can't understand the cartoon? I'm a racist? The howls and screams from the usual people is hilarious.
Take another look.
And spare the faux outrage.
Evil,
The cartoon obviously relates to Japan's unrealized plan to settle Australia back in the 1940s. Real diehards, those Japanese.
Mt Fuji, pagodas and cherry blossoms
Exactly, but aren't they wearing those darling little Mao Jumpsuits?
Yo, Loewenstein - Pauline Hanson just called. They're revamping the One Nation party, and they want you to be their publicist. You'd do a great job!
Nothing like a bit of 'faux outrage' to gird the loins. Sort of like the dreamboat haircut, the fauxhawk.
I think Reak and Roewenstein were attempting some social satire. Velly witty.
People. I can't say for sure what Leak had in mind...but i presume it's to do with outsourcing jobs (in the Murdoch rag last week): http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16986977%5E601,00.html
How this is racist is beyond me.
It's a comment on a very touchy subject.
I have other interpretations - including the ever-increasing removal of jobs to other parts of Asia - but Leak, like much of his wonderful work, is both provocative and timely.
End of story. And, posting a cartoon isn't actually the same as drawing it. Rather large distinction, but that's just me.
I like Leak, I liked the cartoon.
Why Japan? It wasn't mentioned in the outsourcing article. Do they just All Look Alike to him?
Racist? Bill Leak is about as racist as Bob Brown. ie. not at all.
Is anybody on the left racist in your opinion, Antony?
Antony, you posted a picture of Asians which did nothing more than make fun of a typical Asian stereotype - 'they're happy little people who can't pronounce stuff correctly'!
You provided no explanation, no context, no nothing, but gave it space on your blog.
Perhaps you'd care to explain how endorsing a stereotype in this way is not racist?
If Antony does not see the obvious racism in this cartoon, his book is bound to be worthless. No insight whatsoever.
Blog job description:
1) explain every item so that every reader understands everything.
2) repeat 1)
3) repeat again
4) make sure RWDB come knocking. hold their hand.
5) make sure a harmless cartoon is elevated to a status it clearly doesn't deserve
6) praise george w. bush.
i'll remember these steps from now on.
How to be Antony Loewenstein:
1) Post stupid racist cartoon.
2) Wait for people to criticise you.
3) Post a 'reply' to the criticism which, in fact, does not answer the criticism at all.
4) Go on your merry way.
Oh, you're doing quite nicely, Ant.
Ah, I get it. I finally get it.
The fact that the cartoon people are Asian is just a piece of misdirection. Ergo, it's not racist at all.
Pay attention people and understand the nuances. The fact that the cherry blossoms are pink is obviously a reference to the feminine side and the people in the blue jump suits refers to the masculine.
The Pagodas and Mt Fuji are, for anyone to see phallic.
The message of the cartoon is "Men and women should have sex at home".
How'd I go Ant-sy?
-- Nora
1) explain every item so that every reader understands everything.
No, fully understand every item you post.
You know what's the most telling, Ant? All your usual suspects who rush in to take bullets for you when you post something silly are strangely absent on this thread. This post of yours is so on the nose that even they won't touch it. Here's a hint, Antony - this shit is not okay and has overtly racist overtones to it. A spectacular own goal, I feel.
It's just bemusing watching you all fume.
Own goal? I'll take that advice. Off to the gulag for me.
Perhaps taking issue with Leak would be more appropriate - I didn't draw it - but why bother with that?
Ho hum.
Good night.
4.43 in the afternoon and you are saying good night? It's boring you now, isn't it? The only amusing thing here is your pathetic defence of artistic drivel.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Here's the thing, Ant. First you claim it's not a racist cartoon. Funny - everyone else seems to think it is. Suddenly, it seems as though you took some of your own medicine and have a good look at the cartoon. And - it's the darnedest thing - you start backing away from it and claiming ignorance of its meaning. If I was a betting man, I'd place a wee wager on the fact that the penny finally dropped for you. But you're not big enough to admit your breathtaking lapse of common sense - you still claim to like the cartoon, even though you continue the charade about not knowing what it's about.
Antony, don't you don't think disseminating racist work approvingly is blameworthy?
Obviously your regular allies do - they're nowhere to be seen on this thread.
Shab - agree broadly with the thrust of Antony's dilemma that you highlighted. He is certainly caught between the scylla of overwhelming and convincing criticism - but at least notoriety - and the charybdis of irrelevance and thus oblivion.
However, the devil is in the details. You said
even though it is running out of gas intellectually
Was the intellectual car ever gassed up or even pushed out of the garage down to the petrol station? I haven't seen Antony post anything outside of the acceptable, well-established, trendy left wing thought-agenda. Has he ever had an original thought about anything?
Got your cheap thrills yet, boys and girls?
Cheap thrills? Hardly. The intellectual and reputational swan dive Antony just took is quite the spectacle. A word of advice, though, DBO - if I were you, I wouldn't start fighting in Loewenstein's corner on this one - as many of your allies on this blog have realised and consequently stayed well away. The kind of mud that Ant has immersed himself in over this cartoon sticks, and I shouldn't think you'd like to wear it.
As for your defence of Leak, what do you think the cartoon's about? Why do you think it's not racist? Surely its most obvious interpretation is indeed racist?
I've had a busy weekend. The 'storm' over my publishing of this cartoon is instructive in many ways.
But, I can do little more than express my thoughts, place my ideas about it on the record:
The cartoon defines Australia
· We have a fear of losing our national identity (an identity we have great difficulty agreeing on or articulating).
· The cartoon is a glowing example of the way we simplify debate into racial stereotypes - something the Australian and Tim Blair are famous for.
· We deal with issues of the Other in a similar way. (have a look at the way issues in the middle east are parodied in cartoon form)
· I reproduced the cartoon here because debate about it is important.
· I think the cartoon is more a reflection on Australia and the way we view the Other, rather than a commentary on the Japanese themselves. As such it defines Australia and in the process makes sad and cruel use of stereotypical Japanese identity.
· Motivation is essential part of adjudicating issues of racism. I published a contentious illustration with discussion in mind, not approval or sanction. It is worthwhile noting that I often publish contentious information/artwork on my blog. In this case, I recognise that it would have been prudent to hold the hands of Tim Blair readers and include my opinion as a guide.
· I take severe exception to being labelled a racist.
Regardless, Antony is expressing the very racist idea that a national identity is important. Hitler did the same thing.
Are you trying to limit Austrailia to only god-fearing englishman? That the rest polute the austrailian identity?
Shame, shame, shame.
Maybe this cartoon defines YOUR Australia Ant but leave the sane people out of it.
I might be slow but I still don't understand how you got so much "meaning" out of a simplistic and overtly racist cartoon. Although, if "understanding" involves becoming like you, I'll stay ignorant thanks.
Watching this from the sidelines has been hilarious. I know no-one reads or comments here anyway (except the Blairites when you stuff up) but have you noticed the absolute lack of support from your supposed mates? Where's crazy Marilyn when you need her? Methinks you are now considered a liability.
If only backpedalling was an olympic sport...
More strength to you. John Howard appreciates your help.
A busy weekend hey? Obviously not at lunch time Sunday, when you had enough time to post two other articles. Absolutely swamped. Flat out like a lizard drinking. All this attention from your avowed political opposites is stroking your ego to such a point where you have to make long-winded explanations and apologies for a stupid political cartoon.
Let us know when you've had enough.
Oh my god! And, like, you didn't even quote your source, Antony--and, like I bet you don't even give to charities... or recycle, or, like... scrape the black stuff off the toast when it's burned.
Lay off a bit guys! The REAL purpose of blogging is the pursuit of free, democratic speech.
Racism is stating preference for one race over another. Simply stating that Japanese people replace Ls with Rs (which is the only point I can see the cartoon making), is probably a fairly accurate generalisation. As for the Japanese setting, well the Japanese people I know who went to school and go to uni in Australia, and who mix up their Ls with Rs in fact still call Japan home.
Racism would be a concern if the accompanying headline read something like "Illiterate Japanese Sell Out to their Own National Heritage".
And anyway, shoudln't you all be complaining to the editor of the paper, or Bill Leak himself?
You take 'exception to being labelled a racist'? Funny, you didn't take exception yesterday. What's changed?
A little bit less of the faux outrage, thanks.
No idea. I havn't touched any of the bile. Ask blogger.
DBO - true, we are all over it. And rightfully so.
Also notice how there's no one (bar yourself; 10/10 for loyalty, 0/10 for common sense) from the leftist blogosphere leaping to Ant's defence - which is a first. Can't say I blame them, however. If nothing else, they know a train wreck when they see one.
Incidentally, I'm having problems visualising someone "flying into a stupour(sic)".
This is all very interesting.
1) First, the obvious--the commentors post reasonable reactions based on a viewing of the cartoon. They may be right or wrong (and they recognize this), but they are not without justification.
2) Ant responds by saying, essentially, "you're all a bunch of doody-heads posting in bad faith."
3) Commentors say "huh?"
4) Ant gives a justification of the cartoon based not on anything in the cartoon, but based on his own world view, which includes giving the cartoonist the full benefit of the doubt on every issue, despite admittedly not knowing the cartoonist's intent.
So that's what Ant's attitude is all about--mindlessly defending his own. Does anybody here--Ant, DBO, or anyone else--doubt for a moment that if this exact cartoon was published by someone Ant didn't feel was in his own camp, Ant would be first and loudest among those screaming "racist!"? Never mind the fact that his actual knowledge of the underlying intent would be identical.
I ignored the origin and intent of the commenters on purpose. First because I don't know it and second because it's irrelevant. It has no bearing on the quality of their observations and arguments.
How I got here is irrelevant as well. For the same reason.
Maybe if you'd read what these people are saying and then think about how you feel about what they wrote, instead of the other way around (which is what you've obviously been doing), you'd learn something.
While your remarks on my final question are non-responsive (as is virtually all of what you've written), I take it you do doubt it.
DBO :
IIRC, Loewenstein has called ibrahamav "racist" and "bigot" several times.
DBO, I sometimes find it difficult to know when you are being serious and when your are taking the piss because your not real good at either.
You want to see ranting, screaming etc? Follow the link in Wilbournes comment above you goose. Then take a quick trip to Ants mate Margo Kingstons looney tunes site for stage 2. Check out the SEIVX thread especially. It's a beauty. Then come back & talk to me about raving, screaming looneys.
Calm and restrained my bum! Your mob wins the screeching contests hands down buddy.
Go back to the top of this thread and re-read it. You can actually "hear" the moment when Ant realised that his cover was blown and he'd made a right royal cock up in front of the whole class. A classic moment in blogging. It will be like that whole "Where were you when Kennedy was shot?" thing.
Where were you when Ants pants fell down? I feel priviledged to have witnessed it first hand.
Gee, you've gone to the insult cupboard early. Is that all you've got left? No more witty reparte? Some people are sprinters, some are stayers I suppose.
Ah-so, me so solly for inferring you were part of a "mob". I should have realised that you were, as all adolescents proclaim, an individual!
Why I no risten? Me iriot, so solly!
My hand was under the desk but as soon as I saw Ants picture I got a soft-on.
Don't worry though, yours will eventually get big enough to play with by yourself.
It's funny when kiddies try to sound all grown up. Thanks, you've brought a smile to my face.
By the way, where were you when Ants pants fell down?
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